The Senedd met in the Chamber and by video-conference at 13:30 with the Llywydd (Elin Jones) in the Chair.

1. Questions to the Minister for Social Justice and Chief Whip

Good afternoon and welcome to this Plenary meeting. The first item on our agenda this afternoon will be questions to the Minister for Social Justice, and the first question is from Russell George.

Equal Access to Public Toilets

Russell George AC: 1. What discussions has the Minister had with the Minister for Health and Social Services about ensuring equal access to public toilets for disabled people? OQ59514

Jane Hutt AC: Thank you for your question. I have set up the disability rights taskforce to advance disability rights in Wales. I engaged with all ministerial colleagues to determine the action that needs to be taken in each portfolio area, including access to public toilets for disabled people.

Russell George AC: Thank you for your answer, Minister. According to the Great British Public Toilet Map, there are 25 public toilets in Montgomeryshire, in my constituency, but only seven of those are available to those with disabilities. This is really concerning, particularly as there are a lot of people across the county who do have disabilities and need to use a public toilet more than most for various reasons, and they need to have confidence that when they go to a public toilet that there are going to be appropriate facilities for them, not to mention, of course, that Montgomeryshire is a tourism hotspot, at least it is at the moment. And I hope, Minister, you also recognise how important it is in attracting holidaymakers who will also have disabilities. I'm thinking particularly of a project in my constituency. Berriew Community Council, just off the trunk road, are very keen to bring forward facilities for those with disabilities also. But, I wonder what advice you can give in terms of what the Welsh Government can support, because so far they're having real difficulty in attracting the appropriate funds in order to update the facilities.

Jane Hutt AC: Diolch yn fawr, Russell George. A really important question. We know that a lack of accessible local toilets can limit disabled people's lives, stopping them going out, leading to isolation, anxiety, health conditions, and those are the factors that we need to address. In fact, the Equality Act 2010 legally protects people from discrimination not only in the workplace, but in wider society, and we need to promote and deliver on our ambitions to give equal rights and dignity to disabled people in Wales. Now, we have got public toilets provision, and the provision of changing places is moving forward, because—they're not in my portfolio—changes have been made to the building regulations regarding the provision of changing places specifically focused for disabled people. These changes came into force on 3 January.
I think your community council would be well advised to engage with the local authority—Powys County Council in this respect—because we also have, under the Public Health (Wales) Act 2017, a requirement for each local authority in Wales to produce a local toilet strategy for its area, in consultation with residents and other delivery partners, which would be your community council. It's important, actually, that that Act's provisions are designed to improve toilet provision for everyone and to recognise that, as part of their local toilet strategies, local authorities are required to assess the needs of their communities, including those of disabled people and their carers, and to take steps through the strategy to meet those needs.

Care Leavers Basic Income Pilot

Jane Dodds AS: 2. Will the Minister provide an update on the learning to date from the care leavers basic income pilot? OQ59510

Jane Hutt AC: Thank you very much for your question. A comprehensive and detailed research strategy is in place to evaluate the basic income pilot, led by Cardiff University, but it is too early to provide data on the impact of the programme. We anticipate being able to publish further monitoring data on the basic income pilot in the autumn.

Jane Dodds AS: Thank you so much, Minister. It's pleasing to hear the promising early feedback surrounding the basic income pilot for care leavers, especially comments from you noting that we're already beginning to see the benefits of the scheme. I remember, as well, the motion that I tabled last year, back in July, which called on the Welsh Government to consider how a basic income pilot could be extended to include workers employed in heavy industry—the transition basic income pilot. We've got a legal challenge with Aberpergwm mine ongoing and the announcement this year that Liberty Steel would be letting go of 150 workers from its Newport and Torfaen sites. Therefore, there is a dire need to provide workers with stability and security as these industries change. And the Government is expected to look at their just transition framework for a net-zero Wales in the future. We need to take communities with us and to provide the support that they need. So, could I ask you what conversations you've had, perhaps, across with Ministers for climate change and economy as part of creating a just transition framework on expanding the basic income pilot, following its current iteration, to support workers to transition to green jobs? Diolch.

Jane Hutt AC: Diolch, Jane Dodds. And I'd like to thank you for your consistent support for the basic income pilot for our care leavers, with the support you've given since the day we announced it here in the Senedd. I just want to say that the Deputy Minister for Social Services, Julie Morgan, and I met with care leavers at the end of October to discuss the pilot and their experience of it, and learning from them is going to feed into the evaluation. I'm pleased that, of the young people who were eligible in the first six months of the pilot, 92 per cent signed up and were already receiving their monthly payment. And it is important that we link this to your debate and the questions that you've also asked, about updates on this work.
In terms of the just transition, you'll be aware, of course, that the Minister for Climate Change took a call for evidence on just transition between last year and 15 March. There has been a good response to that and they're being analysed, so that will come through. And I think what's important to recognise is that the policy drive for our basic income pilot is to support care leavers to make that positive transition from local authority care, using basic income as a means. And, as I've said before, basic income is the mechanism for this, rather than the purpose of the programme, to give care leavers a real chance and opportunity in life. So, I know that we will be able to look at not just the evaluation of the basic income pilot in terms of that use of that mechanism and the impact it has on care leavers, but also how you could look at it in terms, clearly, of the just transition and opportunities there, when we hear from that call for evidence.

Joel James MS: As you will know, Minister, research has continually shown that those who have gone through foster, residential or kinship care are more likely to become parents at a far younger age than others. Indeed, studies in the UK have shown that almost a quarter of young care leavers have children at the point of leaving care, and this proportion increases to almost 50 per cent around two years later, with evidence showing the reasons behind this being the conscious and unconscious seeking of unmet relational and familial needs. I'm extremely supportive that more needs to be done to help those who have gone through the care system, but I still question whether or not a UBI trial is the right way, especially as it has a cliff-edge end to it when the monthly income of £1,600 comes to an end after two years. With this in mind, what assessment has the Welsh Government made of the impact that this trial will have on young care-experienced parents and their children when their extra income ends, because I'm genuinely concerned about the negative ramifications that can happen when people who have adjusted their spending patterns and lifestyle to accommodate extra income suddenly find themselves without it? Thank you.

Jane Hutt AC: Thank you very much, Joel James, for that question. I know you will anticipate and, I'm sure, be very interested in the interim results from this Cascade—the Cardiff University Children's Social Care Research and Development Centre—independent evaluation. And this is about seeking to understand the impact of the pilot on the lives of care leavers, and, as you know, it runs until 2026, very much engaging with the views and experiences of young people involved in the pilot. And, of course, we have much engagement support around those young people—local authority stakeholders, Voices from Care Cymru, Citizens Advice partners—helping and supporting our young people in terms of overcoming challenges. But also, just from our experience of meeting with the young people, the scope of their ambition, their interest, their determination for their lives to progress as a result of this opportunity they've been given sets them in very good stead for their future—their whole adult life, I'd say. This is about actually seeing if their whole adult life ahead of them could be transformed by this trust and funding and financial support that we're giving to these young people. Yes, of course, already some of those care-experienced young people who are on the pilot will be in this situation—there will be young parents—and they will move on, as all young people do, into adult life. But I think that's a very useful observation in terms of looking at their experience.
Can I just say that 50 per cent of young people enrolled have responded to the Your Life Beyond Care survey? That's a really important survey. Obviously, the Deputy Minister for Social Services is responsible for care leavers and care-experienced young people, and I'm delighted that the First Minister launched, with a number of Ministers, the declaration that came from care-experienced young people. And I do urge the Member, and all Members, to look at that declaration, because that declaration came from work that they did themselves—young people—to tell us in Government how they felt we could do better, at local authority and at Welsh Government level, in supporting care leavers at every stage of their young lives.

Peredur Owen Griffiths AS: It will be no surprise to hear that Plaid Cymru is in favour of the care leavers basic income pilot, and there's pleasure that the pilot is ongoing. That has been replaced by disgust at some of the ways that Tory Members across the floor from me have twisted this policy. To those who are peddling dog-whistle politics reminiscent of Trump, I say this, 'You ought to be ashamed of yourselves.'
Minister, I'd like to see the timescale set out by the Government, so that when the results of this trial come back—and I anticipate that they will be positive—there are clear markers rolled out, so that extensive basic income can continue. We cannot afford to let a scheme that could be as transformational as this to drift into the ether.

Jane Hutt AC: Diolch yn fawr, Peredur, and such an important question. I'm reluctant to go back—but I will do—to say how shocked we were by this attack on our basic income pilot, which came from ill-informed, inaccurate and misleading information that came from the Conservatives. We are clear about that. It wanted to undermine what we were doing, but, most of all, undermine those young people who are most vulnerable in our nation of sanctuary—our unaccompanied asylum seeker children, who have always been included as eligible. And can I put that on the record again for the basic income pilot? As category 3 care leavers—. I have to say to everyone here, you have all got young people, care leavers, in this pilot. Every single local authority in this Chamber has got care leavers in this pilot. Remember that. And they are, I'm sure, wanting to ensure that we are backing them as they go through this important pilot and, of course, as I've said, the comprehensive detailed research and publishing further monitoring data later on this year.
But also, just to say, as to those young people we are supporting, we will want, as you have described very clearly, to support them through every entitlement that they have—every entitlement that they have. And that includes a right to claim asylum in the UK.
So, I hope we can move on from that, but also, just to say, as far as our care leavers and care-experienced young people are concerned, they are listening and watching what we are saying in this Chamber, backing them in their prospects—and there are prospects—for their life chances and life opportunities.

Questions Without Notice from Party Spokespeople

Questions now from the party spokespeople. The Conservative spokesperson, Mark Isherwood.

Mark Isherwood AC: Diolch, Llywydd. Your ministerial responsibilities, as you know, include co-ordination of cross-cutting measures to promote prosperity and tackle poverty. Speaking here last October in the debate on a Member's legislative proposal for a take-up of benefits Bill, I challenged the Welsh Government on the actions it had taken to establish a coherent and integrated Welsh benefits system for all the means-tested benefits it is responsible for, as recommended in the 2019 committee report on benefits in Wales. Last month's Bevan Foundation report on a common approach to Welsh benefits stated that they have long called for a single framework of grants and allowances termed a 'Welsh benefits system', that this system would remove the complex and confusing application process and has the potential to lift people out of poverty. Their findings demonstrate that establishing a Welsh benefits system is feasible in terms of data, that millions of pounds of unclaimed benefits could support those on low incomes, and that the regulations governing Welsh benefits are set by a Welsh Government and so it's within their power to introduce regulatory amendment to facilitate greater uniformity.How do you therefore respond to these findings, and what action are you now taking further to the debate last year and to the report last month? Thank you.

Jane Hutt AC: Thank you very much, Mark Isherwood. I fully support and welcome the report from the Bevan Foundation; indeed, we are working very closely with the Bevan Foundation. And I have to say this is also part of our work in the co-operation agreement, so that we can work towards looking at exploring what we feel has to be a real prospect of devolving the administration of benefits to Wales. What we have already done of course, in terms of moving towards a Wales social security system, is we have introduced a charter. We’re working with the Bevan Foundation to introduce a charter on how we would deliver and how we do actually deliver our existing benefits in Wales. And I think that, also, we’ve been very much helped and guided by previous committee reports on this and by, indeed, contributions from debates.
Maximising the take-up of welfare benefits must be a priority for all those involved, and I have to say that, today, I have written to Stephen Crabb, the Chair of the Welsh Affairs Committee, to urge him to look back at the inquiry that they undertook to look at social security in Wales. I was very disappointed that the UK Government did not back one single recommendation. I’m talking about a Westminster cross-party Welsh Affairs Committee. And one of the key points that I would hope you would support, Mark Isherwood—one of the key recommendations—is that there should be a UK Government and Welsh Government advisory committee on benefits, so that we can maximise the take-up of all benefits in Wales.

Mark Isherwood AC: Thank you. As I said, the regulations governing Welsh benefits are set by the Welsh Government and this relates to a Welsh benefits system for the benefits already within the Welsh Government’s gift. I would appreciate a statement to the Senedd telling us whether the Welsh Government is going to proceed with introducing at least a pilot, and, hopefully, a full Welsh benefits system for those benefits.
But your responsibilities also include fuel poverty and the Welsh Government’s fuel support scheme offered for 2022-23 offered a payment to eligible low-income households to help them with the rising cost of energy. You confirmed in written answers to my office that the Welsh Government made up to £90 million available for this and estimated that approximately 427,000 households would be eligible. However, you also confirmed to my office that, as of 28 February this year, less than £65 million had been spent on this and that local authorities across Wales reported that just 316,000 households had applied to the scheme and that only 341,468 had received a payment. Will this underspend therefore be carried forward, and if not, why not? And what work is being undertaken to establish the lessons that could be learned from this to ensure better take-up of Welsh Government support schemes in the future?

Jane Hutt AC: Thank you very much, Mark Isherwood. Can I just go back to the point related to your first question? Not only are we working with the Bevan Foundation, but very shortly, we’re meeting with them to look at the work that they’ve undertaken with the Policy in Practice consultancy, which is looking at how we could deliver on a benefits system in Wales. And can I just say that this benefits system in Wales, which is already in existence—? And you now referred to one key benefit that we’ve been paying to people, to put money in people’s pockets: the fuel support scheme. This benefits system will be a compassionate benefits system—a compassionate benefits system that actually seeks to meet the needs of our residents.
We heard from the Trussell Trust at our cost-of-living Cabinet committee on Monday, who are calling on the UK Government to make universal credit actually meet the basic essentials of people’s lives. This is a UK-wide campaign. I would hope we would sign up to it, but Policy in Practice is guiding us. It’s very much working with local authorities, because it’s through them that we have, for example, delivered on our winter fuel support scheme. To update you, the latest figures are that 349,000 households received that £200 payment towards their fuel costs from our fuel support scheme. And I’m glad that we are continuing with our Fuel Bank Foundation scheme, which enables fuel vouchers and the heat fund scheme in Wales to continue into this financial year.

Mark Isherwood AC: Which means that 78,000 fewer households than estimated by the Welsh Government accessed that programme and £30 million to £35 million allocated for it wasn't utilised. Therefore, we need to learn from that, I hope you'll agree, so that we can better reach the people who are eligible in the future.
But finally, the Welsh Government's discretionary assistance fund, or DAF, provides grants to people who need to live independently in the community or have experienced an emergency, crisis or disaster. In written answer, again, to a Plaid Cymru Member in February last year, you said that:
'In the current financial year 1 April 2021 until 16 February 2022 there have been 14,130 applications to the Discretionary Assistance Fund for emergency payments, with 8,175 awards totalling £470,616 to clients aged 60 and over.'
In March this year, my office asked you:
'How many people aged 60 and over, 70 and over and 80 and over have accessed the Welsh Government's discretionary assistance fund during 2021-22 and 2022-23?'
However, you now replied:
'The Welsh Government does not hold information on the age of people accessing the Discretionary Assistance Fund (DAF).'
Well, my office then submitted a further question to you, using the same terminology as the February 2022 question you provided an answer to to a Plaid Cymru colleague:
'How many people over 60 have made applications to the discretionary assistance fund for an emergency assistance payment during 2022-23?'
You replied:
'As my previous answer...refers, the Welsh Government does not hold information on the age of people accessing the Discretionary Assistance Fund (DAF).'
So, does the Welsh Government, therefore, hold information on how many people over 60 have made applications to DAF, as you told Plaid Cymru, or does it not, as you told me? If you have such data, will you now provide it? And why the inconsistency in your answer to a Plaid Cymru Member last year, when you provided those figures, and your answers to me this year, when you said you could not?

Jane Hutt AC: Well, I'm really pleased to have the opportunity to update on the discretionary assistance fund. Can I also, again, we've mentioned the Bevan Foundation more than once this afternoon, thank them for their guidance and the engagement that we've had in ensuring, in this financial year, that we can deliver a more streamlined and fairer and equitable discretionary assistance fund? So, from April of this year, all applicants to the DAF are eligible for three emergency assistance payment awards in a rolling 12-month period. And what's important is those payments have been increased in value by 11 per cent—each payment by 11 per cent—in line with inflation. We've got to give as much support as we can to help people meet their basic living costs, such as food and fuel. So, we've already, over the last year, given 527,885 people grants, and many more.
Now, obviously, we want to try and understand if it's reaching the most vulnerable who need that emergency assistance, and I will make sure that we can drill down to provide as much information for Members as possible, in terms of those needs.

Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Sioned Williams.

Sioned Williams MS: Thank you, Llywydd. Good afternoon, Minister.

Sioned Williams MS: We've heard again today about the enormous and increasing economic pressure households are under. Across the UK, the number of people struggling to pay their bills and debts has soared to nearly 11 million, with 11 per cent of adults missing a bill or loan payment in the last three of the previous six months, according to new research by the Financial Conduct Authority. It's therefore imperative that Welsh Government uses every means possible to support people and lift them also out of poverty.
In Wales, households with young children are more likely to be living in relative poverty. The baby box scheme has been very successful in Scotland as one way of helping people cope with the extra financial pressure having a new baby brings. And a baby bundle scheme was piloted by Welsh Government in the Swansea Bay University Health Board area between September 2020 and March 2021, and deemed successful according to the evaluation published by the Government. Further positive scoping research for a national roll-out of this was also recently published. It's two years since the end of the pilot. We now have further research completed. So, does the Minister agree that baby bundles should be rolled out universally in Wales as soon as possible to help new parents during this cost-of-living crisis? And could the Government publish details of how and when they intend to increase the provision of baby bundles? Diolch.

Jane Hutt AC: Diolch yn fawr, Sioned Williams. The baby bundle scheme, as you say, has been successfully piloted. I was delighted to be at the launch of that. It's very much an initiative of the Deputy Minister for Social Services, Julie Morgan. It's a universal gift, and that's what's so important. It is universal. Every baby born in Wales. A gift from Welsh Government to expectant parents living in Wales, including all those essential items that support a baby in the first year of life, and their parents, of course. What's crucial is that we've learned from the pilot what parents’ views are, what appropriate items there should be, and also from midwives and professionals. And the key point, of course, as you say, Sioned, is about the cost-of-living crisis.So, it's a universal offer, the budget is £6 million for this financial year, and they aim to procure and appoint a supplier to deliver this by the end of the year, and are starting project delivery during spring of next year.

Sioned Williams MS: Diolch, Weinidog. It's good to hear that progress is finally being made on this. I'm very proud to be chair of the cross-party group on learning disabilities, and unfortunately the inequality faced by people with learning disabilities in everyday life is a regular topic of discussion in our meetings.
There can be nothing more everyday than money, but over the last few months Mencap Cymru have heard from many people concerned that more and more businesses and organisations are moving to cashless payments only for their goods and services. As many people who have a learning disability do not have access to their own bank accounts, or their cards may only allow them to withdraw cash but not pay by card, they're unable to pay for everyday things solely by card. This means they're unable to have equal access to many shops, restaurants and leisure amenities.
But while an individual with a learning disability may not have the capacity to manage a bank account, or use debit or credit cards, they certainly have the capacity to use cash, and this is an important part of their independence; it helps them with budgeting items, ensuring they don't get into debt. So, Minister, what is Welsh Government doing to enable people with learning disabilities to pay for things with cash wherever and whenever they need to, to preserve their independence, confidence and agency, ensuring that they can participate fully in society? Will you respond to the calls made by a petition started by Mencap Cymru for publicly funded venues, or those receiving grants, such as leisure centres, museums, et cetera, to retain cash payments alongside card payments?

Jane Hutt AC: Thank you very much, Sioned Williams. I'm delighted that I've only just recently written to the Chair of the Petitions Committee, Jack Sargeant, responding to that petition—the petition with concerns raised by Mencap Cymru about disabled people being unable to pay, as you say, for goods and services with cash in some businesses in Wales, and therefore being refused service.
Can I, just at this point, say how pleased we were to see that BBC Wales has had a real focus on disabled people in recent times? You will have seen this, and this came up, actually, in an item on BBC Wales, so that we could hear from disabled people directly what this meant for them. Obviously, we're not responsible for banking and financial services, and we don't have the levers to force businesses to retain cash systems, but the Minister for Economy, Vaughan Gething, is looking at the matter from a business perspective. I've also asked the disability rights taskforce to look at this and to raise it at every opportunity with the retail and hospitality sector, and to take on board the views and the experiences of young, disabled people in this respect.

Foodbanks

Mike Hedges AC: 3. Will the Minister provide an update on Welsh Government support for foodbanks? OQ59512

Jane Hutt AC: Thank you very much, Mike Hedges. We continue to support community food organisations to manage an increase in demand. In 2023, we provided £3.5 million to support community food organisations to help them to overcome barriers to accessing, storing and distributing additional supplies of good-quality food, including good surplus food.

Mike Hedges AC: Thank you for that answer, Minister. Unfortunately, we're seeing a growing need for foodbanks. Some people are going hungry. The expansion of free school meals is helping, but will not solve the problems that foodbanks are addressing. Sickness, a funeral, or a sudden reduction in working hours can cause severe financial pressure. I'm sure the Minister will join me in congratulating and thanking those who organise foodbanks throughout Wales, including in every ward in my constituency. What non-financial help can the Welsh Government give to foodbanks?

Jane Hutt AC: Diolch yn fawr, Mike Hedges. Absolutely, I hope everybody in this Chamber will thank all those, mostly volunteers, who are setting up and running foodbanks. We actually had the Trussell Trust come to the cost-of-living Cabinet committee—I've mentioned that already—earlier on this week. They say they want to get to the point where we don't need foodbanks, the Trussell Trust that was set up and initiated, way back, in Salisbury, and is now in every community. They not only provide emergency food and support to people in poverty, but one of the points that was made in the presentation and with partners there from the third sector was that they also, at those foodbanks, provide a range of support, including financial and welfare advice, and access to benefits, cost-of-living advice. But also, we are linking this—and this is very much addressing the issue that you've raised, Mike Hedges—to raising awareness about how people can access affordable credit, which is crucial, and working with and supporting our credit unions, and also looking at community employability programmes to provide more housing and debt advice.
I think it is important just to reflect on the fact that, in your constituency in Swansea—. I'd like to say and congratulate the fact that Swansea is already delivering universal free school meals to reception and year 1, with 3,470 pupils newly eligible. Swansea Council plan to roll out to year 2 pupils from September, with an additional 1,700 pupils newly eligible for a free school meal. That is a great outcome in terms of that way forward with free school meals, but also accessing the single advice as well.
Could I just ask Mike Hedges that he would also support some of the calls we are making—and they were made on Monday—to the UK Government? If the UK Government actually took some action to help tackle poverty and reduce the need for foodbanks, they'd abolish the benefit cap and the two-child limit; they'd make changes to the universal credit deduction policy to ease pressures on the most financially vulnerable households; they'd increase local housing allowance payments; and they'd provide funding for discretionary housing payments.

Altaf Hussain AS: Minister, foodbanks are an essential lifeline for many families, and their use has soared in recent months, as the price of food skyrockets. While we have the lowest food price inflation in western Europe, well below the EU average, it is still running at about 19 per cent. As a result, we are seeing many families using foodbanks for the first time. But we also hear stories of constituents too embarrassed to visit a foodbank, opting to go without instead. Minister, do you agree that we need to end the stigma and that comments from Labour councillors in Torfaen are unhelpful when they talk about shaming people who use foodbanks in a way that those councillors deem inappropriate? Thank you.

Jane Hutt AC: Well, Altaf, you've made it clear, and you're absolutely right in your statement, in terms of the cost-of-living crisis having a huge and detrimental impact on the lives of our citizens—food inflation running at 19 per cent, and people now who are in work forced to turn to foodbanks because it is the only emergency food and support that they can receive.
But I think also what's very important is that, as well as the Trussell Trust volunteers running foodbanks across Wales, there are a number of other initiatives that are developing, such as the food pantries. In your part of the world—and I visited with Luke Fletcher and Huw Irranca-Davies—I congratulate the Baobab Bach trust, which is now spreading across south Wales, where people become members for a small fee, and then they can come and they can get a large quantity of food every week, but pay towards it, and then also get information and advice. There are lots of different ways in which people are accessing food. I spoke to someone in my local Baobab Bach initiative. She and her husband were working, they had four children, and they had to come to this position, and they were pleased that they were coming to the Baobab fund, where they could actually meet people, get advice and access food. But also, the Big Bocs Bwyd in our schools is tremendous.
But the point is that we should be tackling the causes of this. I go back to the fact the causes are that people are struggling right now. And I know the Llywydd won't want me to do this, but please can I ask Altaf Hussain, will he join—and his Members—with us, with a call to the UK Government? One thing that we should be united in is that we must increase local housing allowances. It's raised every time we have questions on social justice on housing. If we don't increase local housing allowances, as well as abolishing the benefit cap and the two-child limit and uprating universal credit, we will continue to have people put into the position where, because of their circumstances—working and not working, very vulnerable—they are turning to foodbanks. But please let us all thank those volunteers as we move into Volunteers' Week on 1 June for all that they’re doing in our foodbanks in Wales.

Financial Exclusion

Luke Fletcher AS: 4. What are the Welsh Government's priorities for tackling financial exclusion? OQ59527

Jane Hutt AC: Thank you, Luke Fletcher. We are working closely with credit unions across Wales so financially excluded people can access affordable credit and savings products locally. I'm also engaging regularly with responsible lenders to ensure they're doing all they can to support people through the cost-of-living crisis.

Luke Fletcher AS: Thank you for the answer, Minister.

Luke Fletcher AS: Big banks have been hot on each other’s heels shutting their doors in our communities. The lack of cash and dependence on high-cost lending that can result from this has been resisted somewhat by the network of credit unions we have here in Wales, but ultimately this is no substitute for access to a full array of services. As a non-devolved matter, we know the Welsh Government engages with Link, but closures are far outpacing efforts at countering them. A variety of charities, including Age UK, as well as financial inclusion groups, are calling for an acceleration in the introduction of banking hubs. Can we expect this from the Welsh Government?

Jane Hutt AC: Thank you very much, Luke, for your very important question.

Jane Hutt AC: Of course the loss of banks from our high streets is such a challenge to communities and businesses. All parts of Wales are affected, but particularly rural and more deprived communities. To help ensure face-to-face access to banking services continues to be available we are working closely with Link on the roll-out of shared banking hubs, which will bring banking services back into communities. Just to say for the benefit of all colleagues here, there are five banking hubs currently earmarked for Wales: Treorchy, Prestatyn, Welshpool, Abergele and Porthcawl. Indeed, the hub in Welshpool is opening later this year. But we have to address this together, and I thank Luke for this because we need to look at this in terms of every community.

Samuel Kurtz MS: Weinidog, in your response to Sioned Williams earlier with regard to the Mencap Cymru petition in terms of access to cash for vulnerable people, this has been accelerated—our move to a cashless society—following the pandemic. But there is a worry, as Sioned eloquently put it, that disabled people don't have access to electronic forms of payment, and therefore aren't able to have equal access to goods and services. Will you commit today to meet with Mencap Cymru and the economy Minister who you mentioned in your previous answer to Sioned to offer as much support as possible to Mencap Cymru and their members to ensure that these people do have access that is fair and just? Because let's remember, cash is king.

Jane Hutt AC: Absolutely, cash is key. I'm really glad we've got this focus on access to finance and cash for disabled people, and the questions that have been put to me this afternoon. I certainly, through not just responding to the Petitions Committee, which has already written to me, and liaising with the economy Minister as well, will be working with disabled people to look at this through the disability rights taskforce. That disability rights taskforce is made up of disabled people, with all public sector links, to address these needs. But I will be very happy to meet Mencap and colleagues on this matter.

Vikki Howells. We're all waiting in anticipation. There you go.

Vikki Howells AC: Diolch, Llywydd. Minister, I know that you will soon be visiting Hwb Cana in Penywaun, which has been brought back to life as a community space by the Coalfields Regeneration Trust using funding from the Welsh Government's community facilities programme. I recently visited Hwb Cana and I was very pleased to learn that Smart Money Cymru Community Bank will be offering a face-to-face financial advice service from there. Credit unions have a significant role to play in tackling financial exclusion, so how is the Welsh Government working to promote awareness and understanding of what they do, and also to encourage innovation like Smart Money's banking app?

Jane Hutt AC: Thank you very much, Vikki Howells. Isn't it good that we've got your question in? Because you've actually opened up a whole new area of work, which others, I'm sure, across the Chamber will want to consider and look at in their communities. I'm really pleased that Smart Money Cymru Community Bank is now providing credit union and wider banking services from that newly opened Hwb Cana in Penywaun, Aberdare; in fact, I think we're visiting next week, Vikki. It's a really important asset for the community of Penywaun. It is one of the most deprived areas of south Wales, and we provided that funding. The way in which we could help was through the community facilities programme, which gave capital money for that centre, because, often, that's what's needed to actually bring all of those organisations together.
Also, just to say, in terms of the funding for credit unions, which we're putting in through this year, it's going to set up other banking hubs, not just in the Cynon valley but in Blaenau Gwent and in Powys, over the next three years. So, we will learn from Smart Money Cymru and the work that they're doing, because this is about accessing affordable loans, savings products and ethical banking services from the hub.

Child Poverty

Heledd Fychan AS: 5. What steps is the Welsh Government taking to reduce child poverty in South Wales Central? OQ59505

Jane Hutt AC: Thank you very much, Heledd. We continue to prioritise actions to reduce child poverty, including within South Wales Central. During 2022-23 and 2023-24, we have allocated support worth more than £3.3 billion, through programmes that go towards helping protect disadvantaged households and support putting money back into families’ pockets.

Heledd Fychan AS: Thank you very much, Minister. I know that there are a number of things being done, but, as we've already heard today, it is a heart-rending situation. I'm sure that we will have all seen with our own eyes, from constituents and organisations that we work with, that the situation is getting worse on the ground. People are coming to us not just being unable to afford food, but they can't afford electricity and they can't even afford furniture in their homes—they don't have beds for their children. This is a critical situation.
Barnardo's Cymru has today published a briefing paper, which talks about the increasing impact of poverty, and states, in the case of a YouGov survey commissioned by Barnardo's in 2023, that 61 per cent of parents say that their financial situation has gotten worse in the four months prior to February. I know that many of the things that you've outlined are things that the UK Government is responsible for, but, given the critical situation on the ground, what can we do as a matter of urgency to ensure that no child doesn't have a bed to sleep in? We shouldn't be facing that situation of poverty that we used to read about in history books. That's the reality on the ground now, and I'm not sure whether we can deal with the situation with all of the measures that we are putting in place at the moment.

Jane Hutt AC: Diolch yn fawr, Heledd Fychan. I do want to say at this point that I have given a commitment to publish a revised child poverty strategy by the end of the year. We've spent quite a lot of time in the last few weeks and months engaging with people with lived experience—children and young people particularly, and their parents, grandparents and carers—to see what we can do, what is most effective, what we are doing already that is really helping and what works. I go back to some of the earlier questions about the work that we're doing with the Bevan Foundation, learning from policy in practice. As you say, key levers for tackling child poverty are the powers over the tax and welfare system, sitting with the UK Government. But we need to take action where we can.
I'm just going to focus for a moment on holiday support, free school meals and childcare, because childcare is a key priority for the Welsh Government, reflected not just in our programme for government but our co-operation agreement with Plaid Cymru. Investing heavily in these plans, expanding childcare and early years provision, is short and long term. It helps people, particularly parents and women, to work, and in terms of addressing poverty. We can give all of that local support—the discretionary fund, single advice fund—but also I'd just like to mention the fact that we are, in partnership with Plaid Cymru, extending free-school-meal holiday provision to all eligible children until the end of the summer half term 2023, and that's all bank holidays during this period. That is part of that wider package of support to help families directly every day with those meals, with the cost-of-living crisis, and to ensure that those children don't go hungry during the school holidays.

Andrew RT Davies AC: Minister, we know, through education, you can empower people to get on in life and, in particular, reach themselves out of the depths of poverty. You will have heard me challenging the First Minister last week around additional learning needs numbers here in Wales and that 19,000 students had dropped off the additional learning needs register through new assessments that had been done. I think there's a question mark about whether that is correct—that those numbers have dropped off—given what we know through COVID and the impact that COVID had on education. But have you had any discussions with the education Minister to test, from a social justice point of view, that pupils are getting the ALN assessments that they need so that they can get the statements and get the benefit of a whole educational programme so that they can be in the best place possible to get quality jobs at the end of their education?

Jane Hutt AC: Thank you very much, Andrew R.T. Davies. The way in which we're developing this child poverty strategy, this forthcoming strategy for consultation, is engaging. I engage with all Ministers, because every Minister in this Government has a responsibility, so, clearly, the Minister for Education and the Welsh Language, addressing these very issues about those who are disadvantaged, who aren't accessing education, those with additional learning needs. You'll be aware from the statements he's made and the policies he's put forward, of many of those I've acknowledged and discussed in terms of the roll-out of free school meals during the school holidays as well.
One of the most important initiatives he's taken is the development of community-focused schools, with substantial funding going out. There's evidence already that that engagement with community-focused schools, family engagement officers, to make sure that everyone is accessing school and education is already beginning to make a difference. That's key to the child poverty strategy.

Four-Day Working Week

Peter Fox AS: 6. What consideration has the Minister given to the impact of a four-day working week on the Welsh economy? OQ59526

Hannah Blythyn AC: A shorter working week has the potential to have a significant economic, environmental and social impact. We have established a social partnership working group of our workforce partnership council to consider the four-day week in more detail and to make recommendations on the feasibility, suitability and acceptability of a pilot in Wales.

Peter Fox AS: Thank you, Minister. Whilst a four-day working week might sound ideal for many, perhaps, office-based jobs, the truth is that this policy will be unworkable for the vast majority of businesses and hard-working people of Wales. Rather than improving working conditions, many of us believe that this policy would create a vastly unequal society, neglecting many in vital industries and small and medium-sized enterprises. Now, we all know that productivity in Wales is an area that leaves much to be desired; Wales has 5 per cent of the United Kingdom population, but we know it only has 3.4 per cent of its wealth. So, Minister, how do you believe, if this was implemented, cutting the working week would improve productivity across Wales, considering we have some of the lowest GVA stats in the United Kingdom?

Hannah Blythyn AC: I thank the Member for his questions. I think one of the things to say is that, if we'd taken that approach in the past, we wouldn't have the flexible workplaces, we wouldn't have the weekend and we wouldn't have many of the rights and responsibilities at work that we now take for granted.
But there is no single model of a shorter working week, and no single model of a pilot, and we've seen pilots take place, whether on a voluntary basis in individual businesses right across the world, or pilots in the pipeline. The whole point of having that exercise in partnership through our partnership workforce council is to gather more evidence and look at, actually, what that would mean in Wales and do it in a way that brings both representatives of the workforce and employers together as well, so that we can learn and build that evidence. Actually, it's not just about a four-day working week alone, it's about all the things that we can do that are in our gift, the levers we have to make a difference. Because you talk about productivity, but that's based on people too. People provide that, and, actually, providing that well-being for them has productivity gains, not just for businesses, but for the country as a whole.

Residential Women’s Centre

Rhys ab Owen AS: 7. Will the Minister provide an update on the creation of the first residential women’s centre in Wales for women involved in the criminal justice system? OQ59516

Jane Hutt AC: Diolch yn fawr. The Ministry of Justice’s application to create a residential women’s centre in Swansea is currently going through an appeal with Planning and Environment Decisions Wales.

Rhys ab Owen AS: Diolch yn fawr, Weinidog. It is a real shame that, despite the announcement early in May 2020, over three years ago, planning permission still hasn't been granted for the site of this five-year pilot. In the meantime, we've seen an increase in women from Wales being sent to prisons far away from their homes, and we've seen an increase in regressive justice policy and legislation coming from Westminster. Minister, do you know, is it still the plan to open a residential centre in 2024? And what support is offered to women beyond the Swansea area, and indeed in the Swansea area, in the meantime? Diolch yn fawr.

Jane Hutt AC: Diolch yn fawr. Welsh Government has also always recognised the value of this women’s residential centre as an alternative to a custodial sentence, and in providing much-needed support for vulnerable women in the criminal justice system. It is a pilot; it’s a pilot for the UK. It will go ahead, and can I just say that I look forward to the Senedd's Equality and Social Justice Committee inquiry into women’s experience of the justice system? I look forward to a debate on this, because this will also guide us and inform us, as well as build on our female offending blueprint, which brought this into being.

Finally, question 8, Alun Davies.

Alun Davies AC: Thank you, Presiding Officer.

Child Poverty in Blaenau Gwent

Alun Davies AC: 8. What action is the Welsh Government taking to tackle child poverty in Blaenau Gwent? OQ59518

Jane Hutt AC: Diolch yn fawr, Alun Davies. We know how pertinent our actions on child poverty must be, and we continue to focus our activity and budgets towards supporting people, including in Blaenau Gwent. We involved nearly 3,000 people over the spring, many with lived experience of poverty, to co-construct a child-poverty strategy for consultation this summer.

Alun Davies AC: I’m grateful to the Minister for that response. The Minister saw pupils from Coed-y-Garn school, of course, in Blaenau Gwent in the gallery just before we started questions, and I’m grateful to the Llywydd and the Deputy Minister and the leader of the opposition as well for taking time to acknowledge them.
We all want the best for children in our constituencies, wherever we happen to sit, and whatever part of the Chamber we are, but we are also aware that children are growing up amidst a cost-of-living crisis that’s been largely created in Downing Street and has been accentuated by Brexit, and we recognise that the pressures on families are greater today than they have been in most of our lifetimes.I also recognise, and pupils in schools in Blaenau Gwent and elsewhere recognise, the importance of free school meals and Blaenau Gwent County Borough Council has driven that forward and that’s having a real impact as well. But the uplift for the education maintenance allowance means that we’re able to tackle the issues facing older children and young people in accessing education.
Minister, the cost-of-living crisis is impacting families up and down Wales, but particularly in places like Blaenau Gwent. Will the Welsh Government ensure that the projects and policies and the programmes that they’re putting in place will be prioritised to meet the greatest need in Blaenau Gwent, and other communities such as Blaenau Gwent, and that you will continue to argue for a strong social policy and economic policy to ensure that the children you met today, and we all represent, can grow up in secure childhoods with the knowledge that this is a Government on their side?

Jane Hutt AC: Diolch yn fawr, Alun Davies. It was very good to see your pupils today in the public gallery from Blaenau Gwent, and I think they were asking you some testing questions as well, which shows that they have ambitions for their lives, because people across Wales, including Blaenau Gwent, are experiencing the biggest fall in living standards since records began. So, we have to do all we can with our powers to tackle inequalities.
So, I just want to mention not only the universal free primary school meals and congratulate Blaenau Gwent council on rolling those out, but also recognise Flying Start, the earliest years, the increase in funding that we’re putting into that is crucially important. And the childcare offer that helps people to work, and also to make sure we reach out and maximise people’s incomes. But it is the children of Blaenau Gwent and all of our constituencies, particularly those who face the most disadvantage that we must focus on.

The Deputy Presiding Officer (David Rees) took the Chair.

Finally, question 9, Joel James.

Joel James MS: Sorry, Deputy Presiding Officer. The previous Presiding Officer said that that was the last question. [Laughter.]

Well, you'll be glad to know, you've got the last question. [Laughter.]

Joel James MS: Thank you.

Co-operation Agreement

Joel James MS: 9. Will the Minister provide an update on her conversations with Plaid Cymru on the Co-operation Agreement? OQ59520

Jane Hutt AC: Thank you very much, Joel James. And I am glad that I am able to answer your question, I have to say.
As Minister for Social Justice and Chief Whip, I have taken on a ministerial role for the co-operation agreement to support progress against the commitments as we enter the second half of the three-year agreement with Plaid Cymru, andI will work closely with designated Members and Ministers to oversee progress.

Joel James MS: Thank you, Minister, for your response. I believe that I speak for everyone here when I say how shocked we were to read about the culture of bullying and misogyny within Plaid Cymru. And it’s disappointing to hear the comments earlier from my colleagues across the Chamber about Donald Trump and dog-whistle politics, because it was genuinely upsetting to read how my fellow colleagues in this Chamber, their staff, and other members of Plaid Cymru have been treated and what they had to endure. You'll no doubt agree, Minister, that these findings have now imparted a very poor public perception of the Welsh Government's dealings with Plaid Cymru with regard to the co-operation agreement, and this has also been echoed by a former Welsh Government Cabinet Minister, who has called for the agreement to end completely.
Minister, I'm conscious of the statement just released prior to commencement from Llyr Gruffydd, but I'm keen to know, and I'm sure many Members here are interested to know, whether you think the Welsh Government should scrap the co-operation agreement in light of these findings, and if not, will the Minister confirm that the Welsh Government has absolutely no intention whatsoever to reopen renegotiations with the new elected Plaid Cymru leader? Thank you.

Jane Hutt AC: There are a number of points there that I would want to respond to, but I think I ought to start by saying that the events of last week have once again brought the issues of bullying, misogyny, sexual harassment and abuse into sharp focus, and this is across the board in terms of our workplaces. Nobody is immune from recognising that this is something—and I hope it's across this Chamber—that we need to look at. We believe everyone has the right to work or volunteer in a safe environment where their rights are protected and they're treated with respect and dignity. So, as far as the Labour Party is concerned, the First Minister and leader of Welsh Labour, Mark Drakeford, has written to members of all the party in Wales to make sure they know how to make a complaint and are aware of the support available. He's set out a series of actions for us in the Senedd Labour group that we will be taking to strengthen training for Labour Members of the Senedd and their staff. It's important that all of us do what we can do to make politics a safer place for everyone. That is something that we should all sign up to in this Chamber, but it's also part of our violence against women, domestic abuse and sexual violence strategy, where we have a work stream on tackling violence in the workplace.
I don't know whether you listened yesterday to the very powerful speech from the then leader of Plaid Cymru, Adam Price, and the response from our First Minister, in which he was acknowledging the outcome of parties working together, working together on policy commitments, on shared priorities, policies in which we have common interests, to implement progressive solutions. That's what we're doing in the co-operation agreement. It's an ambitious agenda. We're working together to address issues that take the greatest political and policy effect to resolve, and where agreement is possible, as Adam Price said yesterday, people rightly expect political parties to work together, and that's what we're doing.

Thank you, Minister.

2. Questions to the Counsel General and Minister for the Constitution

Item 2, questions to the Counsel General and Minister for the Constitution. The first question is from Rhys ab Owen.

Strikes (Minimum Service Levels) Bill

Rhys ab Owen AS: 1. What discussions has the Counsel General had with the UK Government following the Senedd's decision on 25 April 2023 to withhold its consent for the Strikes (Minimum Service Levels) Bill? OQ59530

Mick Antoniw AC: Thank you for the question. We have opposed this misguided Bill strongly, vociferously, and at every turn since its publication. We continue to make our position clear to the UK Government. We expect them to reflect on the lack of consent expressed by this Senedd and by the amendments that were passed in the House of Lords.

Rhys ab Owen AS: Diolch, Cwnsler Cyffredinol. As I've previously mentioned, the Fire Brigades Union believe that the devolved administrations in Scotland and Wales have a powerful role to resist the implementation of this Bill. The Scottish Government have already pledged never to issue or enforce a single work notice if this legislation becomes law. Will the Welsh Government provide the same pledge? Diolch yn fawr.

Mick Antoniw AC: Thank you for that. The Scottish Government's statement was,
'Be in no doubt, the Scottish Government will never issue or enforce a single work notice. We will continue to do everything we can to oppose this disgraceful, abhorrent legislation.'
I can repeat that on behalf of the Welsh Government, but I would point out, of course, that Welsh Government is not the employer, as is the case in respect of Scottish Government, as well. But the key position, I think, is clear. We have absolutely no doubt about our opposition to the Bill, the strength of our views, and our desire to defend Wales from the Bill's harmful effects. The Welsh Government isn't the employer, as I've said, but if the Bill becomes law and if minimum service regulations are made, we will not be supporting the use of these work notices in any way.We're also making it very clear that we support the amendments that were passed by the members of the House of Lords, which have excluded Wales and Scotland from the legislation, and we'll be seeking commitments from the UK Government to respect that decision.

Luke Fletcher AS: I'd echo Rhys and the FBU's comments with regard to Welsh Government's important role to play in opposing the Bill, and I'm glad to hear positive soundings from the Counsel General there. We must do everything we can to resist a Government that is clearly looking to break unions and break workers who are striking for a better workplace and a better life for their families. Counsel General, what discussions are happening now in the Welsh Government about what we can do to protect workers, not just now, but into the future as well? We know the Trades Union Congress is exploring what devolution of employment law might look like—is the Welsh Government too?

Mick Antoniw AC: Thank you. At the moment, industrial relations and employment law per se is a reserved matter. We will work with all those who want to actually support and improve working conditions to improve legislation that impacts on working people. There are areas that are ancillary to that. Of course, we do work in conjunction with our social partners and, of course, we have passed the Social Partnership and Public Procurement (Wales) Bill, which is now an Act, or is about to become an Act, I think, officially, once it is sealed in a week's time. We've also shown that we've done that in respect of various other pieces of legislation. At the moment, the key areas that I'm focusing on—. And I will be having discussions later on this afternoon, which are really to seek assurance from UK Government to respect the House of Lords' decisions. That would mean that the legislation will not apply to Wales. I'll report back to the Senedd in due course, when we know the response from the UK Government. The other area, of course, where there have been some significant changes, I think, in response to the various representations, is in terms of retained EU law, which possibly provided a mechanism for the removal of employment rights and so on, and that's another matter that I'll report back on in due course.

UK Inter-Parliamentary Forum

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: 2. What consideration has the Counsel General given to the developing role of the UK Inter-Parliamentary Forum in the scrutiny and oversight of legislative and constitutional matters? OQ59525

Mick Antoniw AC: Thank you for your question. I welcome the developing role of the forum and the improved scrutiny opportunity that it presents with regard to Governments across the United Kingdom.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: I'm sure the Counsel General would agree with me that the quality of government is only as good as the quality of the scrutiny of that Government, or, in this case, of those Governments across the UK. And indeed, the UK inter-parliamentary forum is starting to develop some musculature in its role now in the way that it does scrutiny—the increasing intergovernmental machinery, the agreements between Governments, the understandings between Governments. It's great to see the inroads, Dirprwy Lywydd, that we've made during this Senedd, with greater transparency and visibility here, where Ministers who attend inter-parliamentary committees will tell us in advance they're attending, what the agenda is, and report back to us. We can always do more here, but would he agree with me that the inter-parliamentary forum on a UK level probably has a greater role to play, now more than ever, in increasing the visibility of those discussions across the piste of the UK in this post-EU framework that we have? In the last meeting, we discussed the Retained EU Law (Revocation and Reform) Bill, the Sewel convention, delegated legislation and more. Felicity Buchan MP, the Under-Secretary of State for the Department for Levelling Up, Housing and Communities, met with us to discuss those intergovernmental arrangements and we're looking to do more. So, does he share my hope that we can go further on the inter-parliamentary forum and raise the visibility and transparency and the quality of scrutiny of all of our Governments in this inter-governmental working?

Mick Antoniw AC: I thank the Member for those comments, because the points you make are very important. I have attended those, as you do now. The co-operation and collaboration of parliamentarians I think is an incredibly useful means of ensuring effective and consistent scrutiny of UK Government. I think what the forum also does, as a UK parliamentary forum, is it brings together all those or many of those organisations and bodies that are involved in scrutiny in the various Parliaments of the UK in a rather unique way. I've certainly been of the view for some time that it should actually become a formal parliamentary body that is supported by the four Parliaments of the United Kingdom.
What is also interesting about it, of course, is, in those constitutional areas, there is an incredible amount of cross-party support for many of the issues. So, sometimes, the polarisation that exists in some of the arguments or discussions on constitutional issues isn't quite as significant, because they are looked at on a whole-UK basis, involving all four parties. I attended the second meeting of the forum, in October 2022, and I'd certainly be very willing and keen to attend future meetings, and I hope future meetings will be held in Wales. I will be happy to engage with it. I'm happy to engage in its evidence sessions. And then just to re-emphasise the point, which I think is probably the substance of your question, that it really just needs to now be brought onto a formal parliamentary level.

Questions Without Notice from Party Spokespeople

We turn now to questions from the party spokespeople. First of all, the Conservatives' spokesperson, Darren Millar.

Darren Millar AC: Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. Minister, will you provide an update on the latest proposals for a Senedd reform Bill?

Mick Antoniw AC: Thank you for your question. The Senedd reform Bill is work in progress. Of course, it is a matter that is linked very strongly to the co-operation agreement, and preparations are under way in respect of a number of the aspects of the Senedd reform Bill. I would hope that, by the autumn, it will be possible to table legislation setting out the terms of Senedd reform. Senedd reform, of course, is based very much on the Special Purpose Committee on Senedd Reform recommendations. It's not a Bill that is being brought by Government, per se, but it is in fact a Senedd Bill, based on the special purposecommittee recommendations, and the role I see, as the Minister who'll be taking this forward, is to convert those recommendations and agreements into legislation.

Darren Millar AC: As you well know, Minister, the Senedd reform Bill is the product of a dodgy backroom deal between the First Minister and the now former leader of Plaid Cymru, and it's not a Bill that we will be supporting. We don't believe that the public has an appetite for more politicians here in Wales, especially when it's going to cost around £100 million—[Interruption.]

Can we all allow the question to be asked, please?

Darren Millar AC: Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd.
Especially when it's going to cost over £100 million over a five-year term. Now, one of the things that you referred to yesterday in your statement on electoral reform was the suggestion that you would progress work on electoral reform in the new Senedd reform Bill, which will come out later this year. That's raised the spectre of the return, potentially, of extending the franchise for voting to prisoners. Can you tell us: are you planning to introduce an extension to the franchise to allow prisoners to vote in Welsh elections?

Mick Antoniw AC: I can tell you that that last issue that you raised is not on my agenda in terms of the content of the legislation.

Darren Millar AC: Well, I'm very, very pleased to hear that, Minister, and so will members of the public be pleased to hear it. Because what we did not want to see was a return to the attempt that your Government made in the Local Government and Elections (Wales) Act, back in 2021, when you were planning to introduce an extension to the franchise, so that rapists, sexual offenders, people who were—[Interruption.]—people who were convicted of child pornography offences, and others—[Interruption.] It's not nonsense. This was—[Interruption.] This was—[Interruption.] These are statements of fact.

Can I ensure, please, that the Member is allowed to ask the question, and that the Member focuses upon the question?

Darren Millar AC: I am focusing upon the question. And the point of the matter is that your Government has previously brought plans forward for enabling the franchise to be extended to prisoners who have sentences of four years or less, which includes, according to the sentencing guidelines, those sorts of offences that I just listed. Now, given that those plans and proposals were dropped, and that you've committed to not bringing them back, because they're about as popular as a cup of cold sick, will you agree with me that you need to take into account the views of the public when it comes to the new Senedd reform Bill, and that there needs to be a condition that it will not be actually implemented unless there's a referendum? [Laughter.]

Mick Antoniw AC: Well, thank you for the question.

Darren Millar AC: I know you don't like popular public opinion.

Mick Antoniw AC: Can I just say I'm really, really surprised at the attitude? Because one of my concerns is that, in the legislation that we bring forward, and the reforms that we do, there are many things we would like to do, there are many things we might do in the future. I have very much in mind the integrity of legislation, the need that it has to be clear, particularly when you're making changes. So, the issues in terms of the potential for prisoners voting, which occurs in many countries, actually, around the world—it's not on that particular principle. What I would say is this: with our prison system, which is growing and growing under this Government, where, in actual fact, we have many people in prison who probably should not be in prison, one of the things we should be really paying attention to—and it's why things like youth justice and the devolution of probation and so on are so important—is how people who have ended up in prison, who have committed offences, can be rehabilitated into becoming citizens again, becoming integrated in society.
Now, I think the approach that you're adopting, basically, is, once you're in prison, that's it, lock the door, throw away the key. That seems to be the whole approach of the Conservative Party to justice. We actually take justice seriously. We also take the rehabilitation of issues around prisoners seriously, and how you bring people back in, because, when people do come out of prison, we have very great concerns over the levels of recidivism—the fact that people end up back in prison. It is not only extremely costly, it's costly socially, economically, it has impacts on families and so on. So, we actually want what is an improved prison and probation service, and we want an improved justice system. The reality is, under the Conservatives, all of those have deteriorated, to an appalling state. If this Government were ever to be elected, we'd be back into Victorian types of punishment and imprisonment.

Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Peredur Owen Griffiths.

Peredur Owen Griffiths AS: Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. The arrest of scores of peaceful protestors at the coronation marks the latest chilling chapter in this Conservative Government's clamp down on civic dissent. As has been the case for some time, there are no more prolific purveyors of cancel culture than the current iteration of the Tory party, who have introduced a series of draconian measures when confronted by the merest suggestion that their ideological agenda might not be universally popular. The targeting of republican protestors at the coronation was the first major use of powers granted by the Public Order Bill, which has granted police in Wales and England the ability to stop and search without suspicion, and act upon disproportionately authoritarian provision of the serious disruption prevention orders.
The expansion of stop-and-search powers will also carry with it problematic racial implications, especially at a time when public confidence in police attitudes towards race has been profoundly shaken. Statistics show that black people are already six to seven times more likely to be subjected to stop and search, compared to white people. Unfortunately, since justice and policing is not devolved in Wales, in contrast to Scotland and Northern Ireland, this piece of legislation has been imposed upon us whether we like it or not. Furthermore, in the latest attempt to perfect his Tory tribute act, Keir Starmer has repeatedly refused to repeal the legislation if Labour form the next Westminster Government.
Can I therefore ask the Minister for the Welsh Government’s position on the Public Order Act 2023, and does he agree that the only way to prevent such damaging and badly thought-through legislation being imposed upon Wales in future is to push for the full devolution of policing and justice?

Mick Antoniw AC: Well, thank you for the question. Of course, the position of Welsh Government is for the devolution of policing, and I think that is something that will happen. We've actually moved quite a long way towards it, insofar as the partnership models and so on that have been created, where a lot of that is already happening. And I see very little resistance to the logic of that actually happening. And if you talk to members of the public, I think they are supportive of that as well, and, when you talk about policing, you talk about communities and community safety.
Can I just make a comment, then, on the point you raised about the Public Order Act 2023? The position of Welsh Government is very much opposed to that legislation. We had no engagement with it. We had no consultation over it. It is a reserved matter at the moment, but, clearly, it impacts on the broader interests that we have in civil liberties in our society, freedoms within our society more generally. The reason why it concerned me, and I think it's probably the reason why the Metropolitan Police have now issued an apology in respect of a number of the arrests, is when I looked at what was happening in Moscow, and you saw an individual stand up and protest and hold a blank placard, and do nothing else, and getting arrested for the sake of it, and then when you see the same thing happening in London, it is a question of asking what is the difference between the two. How can we be outraged at the one, but then we can't be outraged when it happens in our own backyard? And I think that probably says it all.

Peredur Owen Griffiths AS: Thank you for that response.

Peredur Owen Griffiths AS: Yes, thank you very much for that answer.
I'd like now to turn to another example of the Tory Government legislating in bad faith, namely the Elections Act 2022, which has implemented the new voter identification requirements for UK-wide elections. As has been confirmed by extensive analysis into the matter by the Electoral Commission, instances of voter fraud across the UK are exceedingly rare. Indeed, in the whole of 2022, only seven cases of alleged electoral fraud at the polling stations were investigated by the police, and none resulted in any further action being taken. The new requirements are therefore a solution to a problem that does not exist, and are estimated to cost approximately £200 million to implement at a time when public finances are stretched to breaking point. But even more unsettling are the implications for voting rights and how these new requirements could impose barriers to electoral participation. The problem is particularly pertinent to Wales. A recent study for the London School of Economics and Political Science showed that over a quarter of residents in Blaenau Gwent, Dwyfor Meirionnydd and Preseli Pembrokeshire are not UK passport holders. Meanwhile—

Peredur, I gave you a lot of flexibility in the first question. You need now to ask your second question.

Peredur Owen Griffiths AS: Sorry, okay. Does the Minister therefore agree that it should be a democratic imperative for any Government to ensure that the ability to vote is as accessible as possible? And could he confirm that the Welsh Government will not seek to replicate voter ID measures in Welsh elections?

Mick Antoniw AC: Thank you for the question. I think you probably know the answer because I've said it so many times in this Chamber that we have absolutely no intention as far Welsh elections are concerned, which are essentially the council and the Senedd elections, of introducing voter ID. I think the experience of what has happened—. As you say, it's a project that cost somewhere in the region of £200 million, and tens of thousands of people across the UK were actually denied a vote, and the fact is that, quite frankly, the introduction of that legislation was about voter suppression. As we know, a senior Cabinet Tory Member has made that admission very clear. His concern was not about the fact that they'd introduced the ID in that way, but they hadn't thought it through because it turned out that it seemed as though a lot of Conservative voters were turned away. So, it was the fact that the voter suppression had a different impact to what he expected, and that might explain why the Conservatives lost over 1,000 council seats.
Can I say it also raises the anomaly in terms of, when we look here—? In terms of the ethos underpinning our electoral strategy and reform agenda, it's about modernisation. It's about inclusion. I make this statement very clear. I don't care how people vote, in terms of our reforms, but what I want our reforms to do is to make it easier for people to vote and to maximise the number of people who actually do vote and participate within our democracy.

Senedd Reform

James Evans MS: 3. Will the Counsel General outline the costs to the Welsh Government of delivering Senedd reform? OQ59509

Mick Antoniw AC: Preparation and delivery of Senedd reform legislation requires expenditure that is allocated in the 2023-24 budget. Detailed estimates of the financial implications of Senedd reform will be published alongside the Bill on introduction, in accordance with Standing Orders, for scrutiny by Members during the Bill's passage.

James Evans MS: I'd like to thank the Counsel General for his response. In a statement the First Minister made, he did state that it was an intention that the legislation would allow the Welsh Government to have up to 19 Ministers. The cost of these Ministers is as follows: if they were full Ministers, with senior special advisers, it would cost £869,000. If they were Deputy Ministers, with standard special advisers, it would be £645,000. Counsel General, do you agree with me that the general public out there watching these proceedings would much prefer that money be spent on people in need who are struggling, rather than actually putting Ministers behind desks in Welsh Government offices in Cathays Park?

Mick Antoniw AC: Well, I certainly think probably members of the public would not want a Government to be spending £200 million on voter ID cards to make it difficult for people to actually vote. I think what people do respect is a well-argued case that is put and, I believe, actually has cross-party support—perhaps more cross-party in certain areas than others—of the fact that there is a justifiable need for reform within this Senedd. The role of this Senedd has changed significantly since 1999, the responsibilities. From your side, very frequently you talk about the importance of scrutiny and the capacity for scrutiny. That is an important aspect of our democracy, and it's a matter that's been reported on; it's a matter where there was a special purposes committee that was set up that has looked at it, that has explored it. This is a process about improving our democracy, and all I can really say in response to the approach that you've adopted is that it's typical of the Tory party, isn't it? You know the price of everything, but you know the value of nothing. We see from the legislation that you've brought in that there's such little value of the civil liberties and the civil rights that we have within our society, that I'm very pleased that there is support within this Parliament for actually doing things that actually modernise to improve the democracy of this Parliament.

Disinformation During Welsh Elections

Jenny Rathbone AC: 4. What is the Welsh Government doing to prevent the dissemination of disinformation during Welsh elections? OQ59511

Mick Antoniw AC: We are committed to supporting voters exercising their democratic rights with access to good-quality information. We are helping young people recognise misinformation through the curriculum and we are exploring voter information provision as part of our electoral reform agenda.

Jenny Rathbone AC: Thank you, Counsel General. Elections provoke a lot of online activity, and, at one level, that's a very good thing, to enable people to engage with the issues thrown up at any given election. However, there has been a tendency by online residents groups to be hijacked as promoters of one candidate or another whilst masquerading as something that's independent, and enabling them to block any views from members of the public that are at variance with that individual candidate. I don't wish to stifle debate in any way, but this can be seen as a way of getting round the absolutely appropriate restrictions on election campaigning to provide a level playing field for all candidates where they can only have a certain amount of expenditure by law, and also that they have to provide the details of the agent of that person so that there's a comeback if there's anything libellous or incorrect. So, what discussions has the Counsel General had with the Electoral Commission to ensure that any online groups are either giving equal access to all candidates during an election period, or, if not, are included as part of an individual candidate's election expenses to be declared as political advertising?

Mick Antoniw AC: Well, can I say, the issues you raise are matters of considerable concern? I think they're concerns, really, across all particular parties. They relate to the development of social media, which is a phenomenon that has increased year on year and is one that is subject to considerable abuse, and we see that around the world. We have to look within the areas where there's capacity for us to see how we can impact on that. Of course, some of the aspects are reserved matters, and matters that we can engage with but we don't have the specific responsibility for. But over 55 per cent of the responses to our October electoral administration reform White Paper consultation were supportive of proposals, for example, for an online voter information platform. So, we're now, for example, exploring the feasibility of a platform to allow better access to information for all candidates within those processes. We're also working constructively with a range of organisations who have interest in this space, including the electoral commission and the Electoral Reform Society. I was discussing this specifically with them and others yesterday. We endorse their work in this area, and we're working very closely with them. We do want to see increasingly factual campaigning, and not some of the campaigning that we've seen or some of the things that we see on social media.
There are, of course, issues through the new curriculum. We're supporting young people to help them identify misinformation as they see it, and we've published a guide to help teachers to confidently tackle that. And there is also the issue of democratic health, and we intend to strengthen the offence of undue influence at elections. We will all know, and probably across all parties, people who might have stood as representatives who've chosen not to because they do not want to subject themselves to the sort of abuse on social media that actually takes place. So, the point you raise is a very concerning one.
There are some issues as well with regard to the fact that we consented last year to UK Government legislation, applying digital imprints as part of the Elections Act 2022, at that. So, this is a matter that is ongoing, keeping it very closely under review, looking at all ways in which we can actually ensure that our democratic health is protected and the freedom of people to stand and to participate and the rights of voters to have genuine and factual information presented to them are upheld.

Health Service Procurement (Wales) Bill

Russell George AC: 5. What advice has the Counsel General provided to the Welsh Government regarding ensuring that regulations made under the Health Service Procurement (Wales) Bill are compatible with the United Kingdom Internal Market Act 2020? OQ59515

Mick Antoniw AC: Well, thank you for your question. The Welsh Government's position in relation to the UK internal market Act is that when the Senedd legislates in non-reserved areas, it does so free from the requirements of the Act. This includes a situation where the Senedd legislates to confer regulation powers on the Welsh Ministers.

Russell George AC: Thank you for your response, Counsel General. I did actually raise this question with the Minister when she appeared before the Health and Social Care Committee, and I think we're still left with some confusion, because I just wonder how there can be such certainty that the regulations that come out from the Bill, should it become an Act, will not engage the internal market Act, when we do not know, of course, what those regulations will look like. Now, I understand, in terms of the health procurement Bill, that the working assumption is that the regulations will mirror those of England. But, should they diverge in the future, as the health Minister has made clear may happen, if desired, surely that will then change the legal advice to the Welsh Government. So, I'm asking how the Welsh Government can be so sure and confident that the internal market Act won't impact this particular set of regulations.

Mick Antoniw AC: Well, I think we can say it's probably because the Welsh Government has excellent legal advisers. Look, our position is this: the Senedd's legislative competence isn't impacted by the UK internal market Act because the Government of Wales Act 2006 is a constitutional statute. And, in order for that to be amended for our devolved responsibilities to be impacted upon, any changes to that would have to be by express legislation. The UK internal market Act does not expressly do this. It does not, therefore, undermine the protected status of the Government of Wales Act. As I say, if that were to happen, it would have to be an amendment that would require express not implied amendment, and the UK internal market Act does not do this.

Public Order Act 2023

Rhys ab Owen AS: 6. What discussions has the Counsel General had with law officers regarding the implementation of the Public Order Act 2023? OQ59529

Mick Antoniw AC: The Public Order Act 2023 concerns reserved matters, and the UK Government did not consult with us regarding their plans to commence certain provisions when they did so. It is vital that people have the right to have their voices heard and express their concerns freely in a safe and peaceful way.

Rhys ab Owen AS: Diolch, Cwnsler Cyffredinol. You might correct me with this, because you probably have a slightly longer memory than I have, but I can't remember another occasion where the police have publicly expressed regret so shortly following an arrest. And it's clear that they've done that because there was no legal basis at all to arrest protesters at the coronation or, indeed, a super-royal fan who happened to be standing next to the protesters. What is also unusual is that this law was brought into force through a UK regulation with only a day's notice that it could be used against the protesters. Months are usually given to allow time to explain how a new offence will work in practice. Again, Cwnsler Cyffredinol, another example of rushed legislation being bad legislation. I'm sure this wasn't the intention of Parliament.
I'm pleased, in response to my colleague Peredur Owen Griffiths, that the Welsh Government, unlike the leader of the opposition in Westminster, still opposes this Act. Fortunately, protestors in Cardiff were not affected, but as policing in many ways is in fact devolved through the police and crime commissioners, what steps will the Counsel General take to ensure that this Act does not hinder peaceful protest here in Wales? Diolch yn fawr.

Mick Antoniw AC: Thank you. You are right. I think what was interesting when you saw those arrests was that many of the people who were upset by the fact that it happened were people who were even there going to watch the coronation, who wanted to support it. Because I think deep down all people, whatever their views are on the issue of monarchy and so on, nevertheless are very, very strong upholders of some of our basic civil rights. And I think what became very clear was, when the outrage was beginning to be expressed on social media and in interviews by people across the board in the crowd that were there, I think the police realised that a big mistake had been made.
What was a real concern to me watching this, watching some of the events subsequently, was that there seemed to be considerable confusion among the police about what their role was, and what their responsibilities were—because their responsibilities are not just to uphold the law, but they also have responsibilities to protect the rights of citizens as well. So, that was a major concern to me, and was probably partly a result of the fact this Bill was very deliberately, specifically, rushed through in a non-parliamentarian way without due proper scrutiny and attention. And that point was actually raised by Conservative Members of Parliament as well, so there were cross-party voices on that as that Bill was going through.
I am reassured also that police here in Wales have confirmed that there were no arrests, and I think, as we’ve seen on previous occasions, the relationship we have, the partnership, the engagement, the ongoing engagement with the police and crime commissioners, I think means that we actually have what I think is a far more thoughtful and responsive way in which some of these issues are actually dealt with, including matters from other legislation—the Police, Crime, Sentencing and Courts Act 2022—as well.
What I have an interest in keeping a very close eye on is that the UK Parliament's Home Affairs Committee will be holding an evidence session examining the Metropolitan Police’s approach to policing public protests, and the practical implications of the Public Order Act. So, I’ll take a very keen interest in that, and obviously there is ongoing engagement with our elected police and crime commissioners.

Rhun ap Iorwerth.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: The last question—.

Question 7, Huw Irranca-Davies.

Trade and Co-operation Agreement Partnership Council

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: 7. What consideration has the Minister given to Wales's representation on the trade and co-operation agreement partnership council? OQ59524

Mick Antoniw AC: Thank you. The partnership council is in fact a meeting between the UK Government, which has the responsibility for international relations, and the European Commission. The devolved nations have observer status, as do the member states of the European Union, and take part in preparatory meetings including those of the inter-ministerial group on UK-EU relations.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: I thank the Counsel General for that response. Can I put on record my thanks to the UK delegation and the leadership, not least Sir Oliver Heald, for the way in which they’ve sought to include this Parliament in the proceedings of the parliamentary part of the partnership council when we meet, albeit with an observer status rather than full delegate status? At the last meeting in London, we joined others from devolved legislatures to address delegates at the full plenary session, in a special session. We observed the main debates on energy, trade, security, Ukraine, the Windsor agreement and much more, and we participated fully in the wider discussions and workshops outside of plenary too. Could I ask, what hopes does the Counsel General have for developing further the voice of Welsh Government in its role? But also, as that develops—and I hope that it will over time—that there’s a constructive engagement between UK Government and Welsh Government in making sure that the voice of Wales is heard at an EU level, and that also the voice of parliamentarians is heard as well.

Mick Antoniw AC: Thank you. Of course, just referring to the partnership council, there have been two meetings—21 June and, of course, there was then COVID and so on, and then 24 March. I think that what is interesting about it is that the observer status we have is the same observer status that Germany has, that France has and so on. So, it is an important one, but, of course, what is important is the extent to which devolved Governments are involved in the preparatory work that takes place before those particular meetings.
The inter-ministerial group is, therefore, an extremely important one. I think there is a need to look at the issue in terms of international trade issues and how those are impacted. But, the inter-ministerial group met on 21 March, ahead of the meeting of the partnership council on 24 March. It considered items that were specifically on the agenda for the partnership council. The Minister for Rural Affairs and North Wales, and Trefnydd, attended this meeting of the IMG on behalf of the Minister for Economy, who wasn't there.
There's also oversight of specialist committees. I think it is an important and growing area, because so many of these discussions impact on devolved functions. Therefore, that genuine engagement with the devolved Governments is an extremely important one, and I know it's one that's being kept under very close observation. It's something that we want to, obviously, see become consistent, regular and improved in quality, and be secure.

The final question, Jack Sargeant.

Hillsborough Law Campaign

Jack Sargeant AC: 8. What discussions has the Counsel General had with law officers regarding the Hillsborough law campaign? OQ59528

Mick Antoniw AC: Thank you for your question. On this, we are committed to exploring the best ways to help ensure that victims and their families have their voices heard following any major incident, and are considering what we can do in Wales to make sure that victims are advocated for at a national level when tragedies occur.

Jack Sargeant AC: I'm very grateful to the Counsel General for his answer. As the Counsel General knows, the Hillsborough Law Now campaign is about giving ordinary people real access to justice. The UK Conservative Government are bringing forward a Victims and Prisoners Bill that will simply not achieve this; it does not go far enough, Counsel General. Keir Starmer has committed to bringing forward a Hillsborough law when he is Prime Minister. Given your continuous support, which I'm very grateful for, Counsel General, will you begin the work here in Wales to ensure the Welsh Government will do all it can to support Keir Starmer and aLabour Government in implementing and bringing forward a Hillsborough law now?

Mick Antoniw AC: Well, can I first of all thank the Member for his continual and consistent advocacy of the rights of those people who are victims of major tragedies? Can I also make the comment, and it's one that I've made before, that the real answer to this is the fact that legal aid should be made available to people as a matter of right. There would be no great complexity in actually including a provision whereby when a major incident occurs, legal aid will be made available.
The UK Government is bringing forward a Victims and Prisoners Bill. It includes provisions for the UK Secretary of State to appoint an independent public advocate to support victims of major incidents in England and Wales. It is not at all clear who those people would be, what their status would be, what their role and their functions would be, what their powers would be and whether they're there to support and give assistance, because if that's the case, it really isn't adequate. It has been difficult to get clarity from the UK Government as to what their thinking is on this, so there are, of course, ongoing engagements to ascertain what that would be.
I have quite a number of concerns, because were there to be a major incident within Wales, we would want to ensure that the Welsh Government was able to provide a mechanism whereby citizens of Wales were impacted. Of course, events, when they occur, are very rarely just tied to one particular country. Quite often, there are also conflicts between those people who are impacted, so there are all of those issues that have to be thought through as well.
What I can say is that I do think we have to explore everything that we can do within our powers to help people secure access to justice in all circumstances. We do support the idea of an advocate for victims in the wake of major incidents, but we have real concerns that these provisions do not properly reflect the devolution settlement; they've not been properly thought out yet and there's still quite a lot of discussion and work to be ongoing to see where these provisions go. I support the commitment that Keir Starmer has given to the fact that they will introduce a Hillsborough law, but in the meantime, we will certainly continue to explore this, we’ll continue to work, and I thank you for your engagement, for raising this issue.

I thank the Counsel General.

3. Questions to the Senedd Commission

Item 3 is questions to the Senedd Commission, and Mark Isherwood will ask question 1.

Promoting the Welsh Parliament

Mark Isherwood AC: 1. What action is the Commission taking to promote the Welsh Parliament to the world? OQ59506

The Commission supports opportunities to promote and showcase our Parliament and its innovative work on the international stage. This includes supporting Members to participate in international networks such as the British–Irish Parliamentary Assembly plenary held in Jersey over the past few days. Our international framework was agreed last November. It sets out the objective of raising the Senedd’s profile and the value of building our reputation through engagement and collaboration, whether that is Member- or committee-led, or if it happens at official level or Parliament to Parliament.

Mark Isherwood AC: Okay, well, in addition to promoting the Welsh Parliament to the wider world, there’s still a need to promote this Parliament within the world of Wales itself. With less than half the electorate voting for anyone in the 2021 Welsh general election, it’s clear that the democratic deficit is still alive and kicking with many still not understanding where the decisions are taken, who is responsible, and how much power the Welsh Government actually has over their lives.
Although the Senedd Cymru Welsh Parliament customer services team do a great job reaching out to engage schools and community groups and hosting visits to the Senedd, I’m still contacted daily by people who don’t understand the separation between the Welsh Parliament and the Welsh Government, or when the Welsh Government rather than the UK Government should be held accountable. Representative democracy requires every Government to know that it is on probation and can be kicked out, and every Parliament to be seen to be holding their Government to account.
What action is the Commission therefore taking to spread wider understanding of the Welsh Parliament to the parts of the world of Wales where the democratic deficit is most acute?

I love the attempt to make your supplementary fit into the original question by talking about Wales in the world there just at the end. That was very neatly done, if I may say so.
And to answer the supplementary, then: I agree with you; I would love to spend more money, have more people involved in directly engaging with the people of Wales on the work that we do here. But we live within the resources that we have, and we are continually working with our committees and with individual Members to see how we can extend the engagement work that our committees do, in particular with the real-life experiences of people in Wales. And that’s the direct engagement, of course, is to make our work here relevant to the real-life experiences and to be enriched by the real-life experiences of people in Wales. So, we can do that directly.
We are where we are with how our Senedd is covered by both press and media, and I could go on for quite a long time, as you could, on the lack of coverage generally for Welsh politics in the media and press that the people of Wales read and listen to. But our greatest champions in all of this are us as 60 Members, in the work that we do both in our constituencies and regions, and also in how we engage with people in our constituencies and regions and make the issues that are important to them important to Welsh Government here, and that we scrutinise the actions of Welsh Government in improving the lives of the people of Wales.

Harassment

Mike Hedges AC: 2. Will the Commission provide an update on the information and support it provides for Commission and Member staff experiencing harassment? OQ59513

Joyce Watson AC: Thank you for your question, Mike. The Commission is committed to ensuring that the Senedd is an inclusive organisation, free from intimidation and harassment. Our tripartite dignity and respect policy was put in place in 2018, and the policies are supported, for example, through training, contact officers, and support for well-being, such as occupational health, and our employee assistance programme. The policy and how to access it is regularly communicated to all concerned through a variety of means, such as news page articles, service-level meetings, and with full details of support on dedicated intranet pages. A proactive review of the dignity and respect policy was conducted in recognition of the new Members' code of conduct, and the number of new Members elected to the sixth Senedd. A task and finish group of Senedd Commission officials was established to lead the review process, the findings of which will be submitted to the Commissioners at their next meeting on 22 May. The Commission has also taken extensive steps to ensure the safety of Members and their constituency support staff. Senedd security have set up a robust incident reporting platform that ensures individuals can access support and guidance as needed from the dedicated Member security team.

Mike Hedges AC: Can I thank Joyce Watson for that response? I think the policy is brilliant. Most policies that we produce are brilliant. It's actually getting them out so people know about them. I'm sure it's been published in all sorts of places that I and most other people in this room have not read, and I think that's one of the problems we have—getting things across to other people. How do people know who to go to? If one of my staff was suffering harassment from another Member here, who would they go to apart from me? How can people get early intervention? I'm a great believer in early intervention. We need named contacts. We need an early intervention strategy so that someone can be told that what they're doing is out of order and unwelcome, because sometimes people don't know that, and I'll give you an example. When I was a lecturer, I told one student to stop bullying. He was very aggrieved and very upset and said, 'I have never bullied anyone in my life—I was just joshing with him.' I said, 'It was joshing to you, but bullying to him.' He apologised and it stopped. It's getting this early intervention so if people do things that upset others then they know about it, rather than it continuing.

Joyce Watson AC: Thank you for that, and what you say is hugely important. Dignity and respect training was delivered to Members, Member support staff and Commission staff in the fifth Senedd, and it now forms part of the Commission's ongoing professional development programme, so that covers off the first part on how should you know what you're doing isn't acceptable. Dignity and respect training is provided to all new Commission staff as part of the core induction programme, and contact officers have been appointed to guide potential complainants and to provide confidential support. There is emotional support available to potential complainants and those who have allegations made against them through the employee assistance programme and the occupational health nurse. The employee assistance programme provides confidential emotional and practical support for issues at home or at work, because people work in both places now.
Enhanced support was provided to the standards commissioner's office to facilitate an improved and gender-balanced service from his office, and website improvements and a mystery shopper—and this is key, actually, to your question—exercise was conducted to test whether the information, search tools and the language were clear and accessible. Specialist independent and confidential support is now available through the standards commissioner's office, to support those who wish to complain about alleged instances of inappropriate behaviour by Members. That dedicated confidential service is provided by the independent charity Victim Support. It's absolutely key here that we have independent advice and support.
We have collected robust data about current case numbers, and it is difficult to establish, due to the highly sensitive and personal nature of cases, but we can be reasonably confident that there are few cases. However, as highlighted again in recent reports, there is a risk that some cases will go unreported.So, both as a Commissioner and a Member of this Senedd, I hope that anyone listening here today will feel confident that we are doing our very best, that there is an independent advice line through Victim Support, that they will access that, and I sincerely hope that all Members will avail themselves, if they haven't already, of the training that they will need to go through. We know that there has been clear direction to our political party, and I'm sure others will take that on board.

Promoting the Work of the Senedd

James Evans MS: 3. What outreach is the Commission doing to promote the work of the Senedd across Wales? OQ59508

The Commission provides a variety of services to promote the Senedd's work across Wales. Our education programme engages with young people through schools, colleges, and youth groups in communities across Wales, in person and online, and welcomes groups to the education centre in Siambr Hywel. We support 60 Welsh Youth Parliament Members, from all parts of Wales, in delivering their work, holding regular meetings across Wales, and the Senedd will attend the major summer events, starting within the next fortnight at the Urdd Eisteddfod, which is within easy reach of your constituency, and, of course, at the royal Welsh in July, which is in your constituency.

James Evans MS: Diolch, Llywydd. I'd like to thank you for your answer, and also my colleague Mark Isherwood for asking my supplementary question. So, in the interest of time, Llywydd, I respect the answer you gave earlier to a colleague of mine.

I'm willing to answer that question by giving the prepared answer I'd worked on for Mark Isherwood's question, but in the interest of time, I'll refrain from doing that. Thank you.

Supporting Schools to Visit the Senedd

John Griffiths AC: 4. How is the Commission supporting schools in deprived areas to visit the Senedd? OQ59522

Our in-house education programme provides schools with an opportunity to take part in debates in the education centre in Siambr Hywel and to visit the Senedd as part of their time with us. There are six slots available every week during term time, which are available to groups from all parts of Wales. To support schools with the cost associated with their visit, such as fuel and bus hire, a travel subsidy of £1 per mile is available for those outside a 10-mile radius of the Senedd here in Cardiff Bay. The availability of these sessions gets shared with schools via our newsletter, which is sent to all schools across Wales, and on our social media channels.

John Griffiths AC: Diolch, Llywydd. I'm sure I can speak for all Members here in saying that welcoming schools from our constituency to the Senedd is an absolute highlight of the role that we have, and it's wonderful to have that engagement and the great questions that children ask. The commitment of the staff is very evident to try and engage with the democracy that we have here in Wales. So, I'm sure like everyone else, I'm keen to build on that and see that develop as much as possible.
One of the issues for schools in my constituency, Llywydd, and again I'm sure it's the same all over Wales, is the cost of coming here. You mentioned the transport cost—I think that's a really significant issue—and the £1 per mile. Schools serving the more deprived areas, Llywydd, have particular difficulty, because their budgets tend to be a lot more strained and it's much more difficult to fundraise from parents and parents' associations and so on, and local businesses, because of the nature of the areas that they serve. So, I wonder if there might be some special consideration for schools serving our more deprived communities, and perhaps a more generous contribution towards their costs. Otherwise, I think there's a real social justice issue in terms of the schools that come here and the engagement that we have.

I know, as a Member for Ceredigion,I enjoy seeing the schools from my constituency come here, and I know how much the young people appreciate the opportunity themselves. The point you make is that schools such my schools from Ceredigion really benefit from the travel cost contribution because of the length of the journey and the cost of the journey involved, but there are different costs that affect differently schools, depending on the area that they're in, and I think you make a very good point during what is a very difficult time for a lot of families throughout Wales. So, I'll take it away and we'll look at itas a Commission to see whether there are additional interventions that can be made available to schools in some areas where they are under-represented possibly already in their ability to attend the Senedd, and whether we need to focus in on that particular area of work. So, thank you for raising that—it's really an important issue. I think that all of us, right across the Chamber, can think creatively as to how we can help.

Coronation of King Charles III

Sam Rowlands MS: 5. What discussions did the Commission have about Senedd representation at the coronation of King Charles III? OQ59535

No discussions were had by the Commission about Senedd representation at the coronation. The Deputy Presiding Officer and I discussed the matter of attendance and the Senedd's presence at my request, and the Deputy Presiding Officer agreed to represent the Senedd at the event.

Sam Rowlands MS: Thank you for your answer, Presiding Officer. You already know of the disappointment from these benches at your decision not to attend the coronation despite the fact, of course, that you hold the role representing the Senedd. I think it raises a number of important questions about the way this place works and the role of the Presiding Officer. We know of discussions in this place at the moment about Senedd reform, and in that context, Llywydd, there's actually something fundamental related to your position. If we look at the role of the Senedd Presiding Officer, that role sees the holder remain affiliated to a political party, which I expect can sometimes put you in an awkward position. We know that in Westminster the speaker severs ties with his or her political party when they hold the role of speaker, and there's a clear precedent also in devolved parliaments—the Presiding Officer in the Scottish Parliament is in a neutral position as well. There's nothing personal with you at all, Llywydd; it's about the position of Llywydd and the maturity or otherwise of the Senedd as well. Indeed, the fact that you had to rule yourself out of the Plaid Cymru leadership race recently perhaps also points to that blur between political affiliation and the neutral role of the Llywydd. So, I wonder, especially in the context of Senedd reform, what is being done to look at the status of Presiding Officer to best represent this institution and the country as well. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Two weeks after the coronation, I'm actually quite pleased that I have an opportunity here to reflect on the record on my decision not to attend the coronation, so thank you for the question, Sam Rowlands.
On a personal level, it is never easy to say 'no' when all around you are saying 'yes'. However, I took the decision to pass on my invitation to the Deputy Llywydd based on my personal view that attending a celebration of coronation was not for me. The Senedd was ably represented by the Deputy Llywydd. I did not seek any publicity for my decision, and merely answered a factual question from a journalist. I turned down all requests for media interviews, as I thought that was the most respectful thing to do.
I know that some Senedd Members have criticised my decision, and others have supported it. We're a Senedd where there are different views on the future of the monarchy, where there are different views on whether a Llywydd has to accept any and all invitations to royal events. We're at our strongest as a Senedd when we respect each other's different views, and from one Llywydd to the next, we're not copycats of each other; we remain individuals within our roles. Looking back at previous Presiding Officers, I can probably surmise that one would have embraced the opportunity to attend a coronation, and one might equally have embraced the opportunity, but with an interesting constitutional twist to interpret his enthusiasm.
So, as elected Members, we're all different in our opinions. We probably have 60 differently nuanced opinions on my non-attendance. Vive la difference, I say. I personally enjoy the difference. I enjoyed seeing a photo of Sam Rowlands and Darren Millar on coronation day in your union jack waistcoats, braces and bow ties, ringing bells, I think. I even enjoyed seeing an interview on Twitter on GB News with Andrew R.T. Davies, where I was told to 'put my big girl pants on'—not by Andrew R.T. Davies, by the way. And, for the avoidance of doubt, in every decision I take I have my big girl pants on.
Your exact question, Sam, is on the role of Llywydd and whether Senedd reform legislation is an opportunity to define that role differently. I agree, actually, that the scrutiny of that legislation is certainly an opportunity to have that debate. As a small, 60-Member Senedd, we've always been an all-hands-on-deck kind of Senedd. I've been a Government Minister and now I'm Llywydd. A previous Llywydd became a Government Minister after three terms as Llywydd. In a larger Senedd, we can create new practices and protocols, and if my non-attendance at a coronation is what instigated a discussion on this, then that's a good thing and, on that, we can agree.

Climate Change

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: 6. Will the Commission consider a trial of additional annual leave days for those employees travelling overseas for holidays by means other than flights, such as rail and coach, to help tackle climate change? OQ59517

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: Okay. I'm sorry, I didn't hear you call me. There are no plans to introduce proposals relating to additional annual leave subject to travel methods. Senedd Cymru aims to be an exemplar in sustainability and environmental performance. Indeed, as one of the leading public institutions in Wales, we recognise our own responsibility to reduce our impact on the environment and operate in an environmentally responsible manner in all our activities. We have a carbon-neutral strategy in place, our third strategy, running until 2030, which contains a range of challenging targets for further reducing our energy use and emissions. It should be noted also that the Senedd is now operating at half of the carbon footprint we had when we started. Thank you.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: That's really good to hear, and I thank you for the written answer to a question similar, but not quite the same as this, a few weeks ago. And it's good to hear that the Senedd, the Commission, is trying to be a leader in climate change and carbon reduction. And it's in that spirit I push again once on this question.
Just to say, I think I may be the first Member of the Senedd, MSP or MP that is now operating a trial in this, where I have said to my employees, should they want to take a holiday this year in a European destination where they can substitute a flight for rail or coach or other—and I think some are interested—then they will get that additional day that will enable them to travel without eating into their travel time, and the additional cost as well, because I also want to lead on climate change. So, I wonder, will you go back and have a look again? Because there is an organisation called Climate Perks that many leading companies—private companies, voluntary sector bodies, public sector organisations and, I have to say, the Climate Change Committee—are signed up to, who operate this now. I'm trialling it this year. This is something that the Commission should look at and see if you can trial it as well. It may not work, not many people may want it, but for those who do, one of the biggest contributions we can make to zero carbon and reducing our carbon take is having fewer flights to short-haul destinations.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: Thank you. I applaud the fact that you've decided, within your office—your decision to do that. However, along with the rest of the public sector, this Commission is under financial pressure, and any such offer for additional leave, which would have to be funded, could require a relatively significant budget increase. The Commission already does offer a most generous annual leave package to staff. That said, we have a Commission meeting on Monday, and it's something that I can actually just raise that this is what you're doing. However, I cannot make any promises here on behalf of the Senedd Commission that we will follow suit. Thank you.

I thank you, Commission Members.

4. Topical Questions

We now move on to a topical question that will be asked by Samuel Kurtz and answered by the Minister for Rural Affairs, North Wales, and Trefnydd.

Avian Flu

Samuel Kurtz MS: 1. What bio-security measures is the Minister pursuing to prevent the spread of H5N1 in Wales in light of two poultry workers in England contracting avian flu? TQ776

Lesley Griffiths AC: H5N1 Avian influenza is a disease of birds, but we are actively mitigating the small risk of spread to people. Our avian influenza prevention zone includes a range of important biosecurity measures to stop the spread of this virus. Our partners and contractors who deal with outbreaks are equipped with all appropriate PPE. Members of the public are advised not to touch sick or dead birds.

Samuel Kurtz MS: Diolch, Minister.

Samuel Kurtz MS: I also thank the Deputy Presiding Officer.

Samuel Kurtz MS: I'm grateful that this topical question has been selected today, and I'm grateful to the Minister for taking time to answer the question, especially given the mammoth session on the agriculture Bill yesterday evening. But to be absolutely clear, I'm not trying to cause alarm with this topical question; instead, I wish to further understand, as does Wales's poultry sector, the steps that the Welsh Government are taking to protect the industry and its workforce. As with any disease, the best way to control the spread and reduce transmission is to adhere to strict biosecurity protocols. Therefore, I would be grateful if you could provide an update to the Chamber on whether any updated or any detailed biosecurity guidance has been issued to the poultry sector, in light of zoonotic transmission. In addition to this, is there any additional support being offered through Farming Connect in terms of training for poultry workers, or support to meet the financial costs of implementing biosecurity measures or personal protective equipment investment? And is the Minister aware of any future availability of a cost-effective vaccine and its delivery? Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd.

Lesley Griffiths AC: I suppose the short answer to your question is 'no'. Obviously, we've got stringent guidelines; biosecurity, as you point out, is absolutely mandatory, and a biosecurity self-assessment checklist is available for all our poultry keepers. I mentioned that any contractors that we have had where we've had outbreaks of AI that have had to go in, have got the appropriate PPE, et cetera, et cetera. I think we need to reflect, don't we, on the reasons why we control avian influenza, and there are three reasons: it kills birds, it disrupts trade and we need to do it to protect public health. And I absolutely understand that the risk to humans is very small, but, as we've seen in England with these two poultry workers who tested positive, even though they were completely asymptomatic, they were part of a surveillance testing pilot that was being undertaken by the UK Health Security Agency. And of course, when you have that occupational exposure, it's something that you need to be aware of. So, I think it's really important that we continue with the additional biosecurity measures that we've had, unfortunately, off and on, over the past 18 months.
And it's a good opportunity, as I said in my original answer to you, to remind members of the public—. Because, of course, we can control it with our flocks and kept birds, but there are wild birds as well, and it's really important that people understand that, if they see sick or dead birds, they do not touch them. It's really important also that any, as I say, contractors—when you think about the horrendous, I think, scenario that some of these people have to deal with on our behalf, when we've had birds being culled, there's a lot of dust, there are a lot of feathers, there's a lot of other material—it's really important that they have that appropriate PPE and that they wear face coverings as well.

Mabon ap Gwynfor AS: Thank youto Sam Kurtz for asking this question today. The Minister will recall that I raised this issue with her on the floor of the Senedd just last week, so I won't rehearse what I said then, and I'm grateful to the Minister for the update that's just been presented today. But there is one element that is often forgotten in the discussion on avian flu, which is its impact on egg producers. This sector has already suffered a very difficult time, with some farmers saying that there is blame on the supermarkets, but there is no doubt that the issue of avian flu does affect the supply of eggs. Therefore, I'd like to ask the Minister what assessment she has made of the impact of this on the egg sector, and what steps are being taken to ensure that egg farmers in Wales won't suffer as a result of these developments. And what support will be provided if this sector is to be affected? Thank you.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. Well, clearly, our egg producers have been affected; if you think about free-range for instance, because of the mandatory housing Orders that we had, obviously, free-range egg production was affected. I think I probably said to you that this is being dealt with at a UK level, and, certainly, the UK Government had co-ordinated a meeting around egg producers. I'm not aware of any specific support or funding that is available, but, obviously, we need to keep a very close eye on that, and see what the outcome is for our egg producers.

Thank you, Minister.

5. 90-second Statements

Item 5 is the 90-second statements. And firstly, I call on Tom Giffard.

Tom Giffard AS: Diolch yn fawr iawn i chi, Dirprwy Lywydd. This week is Wales Tourism Week, when we champion all that this beautiful nation of ours has to offer. I've had the pleasure of visiting a number of tourism businesses—many of them fantastic—across my region of South Wales West, seeing first hand the tremendous benefits that these companies bring, not only to the tourism offer in their local areas, but to the communities that they live in themselves. What I'll say that I've had from conversations with local operators is that, when it comes to marketing Wales to the world, we have to be clear that there's something for everyone, whether that's the spectacular beaches or the depths of the countryside, or everything in between—suffice to say that Wales has so much more to offer than just castles and rugby, proud as we are of that heritage. In other words, the sheer diversity, the length and the breadth of Wales, extends far beyond those common stereotypes. And in South Wales West, we have some truly amazing places to visit, from the wonderful beaches of Gower, to the grand surroundings of Porthcawl, to the centuries tied up in the Neath valley and beyond. We have so much to offer right across my region. And, of course, the strength of our tourism offer wouldn't be possible without the tremendous hard work of our local businesses, hospitality staff, historic trusts and volunteers, and I'd like to give my heartfelt thanks to all of those people.
And throughout this week, and indeed every week, I look forward to hearing more about the lives and experiences of our amazing tourism businesses right across Wales. Wherever you are in Wales, enjoy Wales Tourism Week as we commemorate it here in the Senedd.

Vikki Howells AC: It's important that we preserve our local history, and that includes women's history, which can so often be overlooked. The purple plaque campaign does exactly that, remembering remarkable Welsh women. At the end of last week, I attended the unveiling of Cynon Valley Museum's—in my constituency—first purple plaque. It was appropriate that the plaque was in commemoration of Rose Davies, who's record is itself one of a remarkable series of firsts. Rose was the first woman to chair an education committee in Wales; the first secretary of the Co-operative Women's Guild in Aberdare; the first woman chair of Aberdare Trades and Labour Executive Council; in 1920, the first woman to be elected to Glamorgan County Council, representing the Aberaman ward. And, then, in 1949, Rose became the county council's first female chair.
Born in Aberdare in 1882, Rose worked as a teacher, then embarked on a lengthy career of public service. With her husband Ted, she became close friends with Keir Hardie, including advising him on education policy. This was one of her passions, as were the Labour peace and women's movements, including the provision of maternity services and birth control. Rose was a remarkable Welsh woman, so it is only fitting that she is remembered. My thanks to colleagues from the Senedd, and to all those local people who attended, to make sure that that is the case.

Darren Millar AC: Tomorrow marks the sixtieth anniversary of the Welsh Mountain Zoo—the national zoo of Wales. Based in Colwyn Bay, the zoo is one of north Wales's top tourist attractions, welcoming around 170,000 people through its gates each and every year. And it's gone from strength to strength since it was opened by its founder, Robert Jackson, and the mayor of the bay of Colwyn in 1963. From those small beginnings, the zoo is now home to 1,500 animals, and more than 100 species. It employs 40 members of staff, and that rises to 55 members of staff during the busy summer season.
I've been blessed to visit the zoo on many occasions over the years to hear more about its educational and conservation work, including, of course, its vital role in the UK-wide red squirrel breeding programme. I've also helped the keepers to feed the parrots, the chimps, the gibbons, the bears, tigers, lemurs, sea lions, meerkats and the snow leopards over the years, and, this weekend, visitors have been invited to celebrate the zoo's diamond anniversary with half-price tickets and a host of special activities. The Welsh Mountain Zoo is a Welsh success story, and I hope that all Members in this Chamber will join me in wishing everybody there a hearty congratulations on this special anniversary, and every success for the decades to come.

Laura Anne Jones AC: This week is Dementia Action Week, where the focus this year is on the importance of a timely diagnosis. An accurate and timely diagnosis is crucial to help people manage their symptoms and allow access to the treatment, support and advice that a diagnosis unlocks. Research by the Alzheimer's Society Cymru has revealed that almost one in three people in Wales who notice symptoms of dementia in themselves or a loved one wait more than a month before voicing their concerns, with almost one in five people in Wales waiting for more than six months before speaking to a medical professional. Confusing dementia symptoms with signs of ageing was the main reason why people stayed silent about potential symptoms of dementia. This was followed by not wanting to worry loved ones, as well as fears of how their relationships might change. Asking the same question over and over again is not called getting old, it's called getting ill, and it could be a sign of dementia. Therefore, this week, Dementia Action Week, I would like my constituents and everyone in Wales to know that there is support out there from organisations such as Alzheimer's Society Cymru if you're confused about your symptoms. So, go and get the help you need and deserve.

Heledd Fychan AS: This week is Mental Health Awareness Week, and I am sure that we're all aware of the important role that keeping fit plays in maintaining good mental health. Therefore, I'd like to take the opportunity to mention the excellent work that ColegauCymru is doing to ensure that learners' everyday lives are active and fit, and the positive impact that this has on their mental health.
Recently, I sponsored a ColegauCymru meeting, where learners told me about the benefits of being fit and the impact on their physical and mental health. It was heartening to hear young people speak so enthusiastically about their experiences.
In 2021, ColegauCymru commissioned three qualitative research projects with colleges, which focused on the provision of active well-being. Funding for the active well-being research projects was provided by the Welsh Government as part of its programme to support mental health and well-being initiatives in further education colleges.
More than 300 learners, tutors and staff members have now taken part in the research. They provide active wellbeing in further education institutions, and in other national institutions. The research found that active well-being provision is welcomed by learners, and that it has helped them to understand the link between physical activity, mental health and well-being. Those who take part in active well-being opportunities report that they have fun, enjoyment and relief from stress, anxiety and work pressures, as well as opportunities to socialise.
Although great work is happening in the colleges, there is evidence that fewer 15 and 16-year-olds are keeping fit, especially girls, people from lower income backgrounds, and those from black, Asian and ethnic minority backgrounds, and with other protected characteristics.
Colleges are well placed to support these learners, but the challenge is ongoing, and continued funding from the Welsh Government and Sport Wales is essential in this area—something we can all agree on, hopefully.

Thank you, all.

6. Debate on a Member's Legislative Proposal—High-rise building safety

Item 6 is the debate on a Member's legislative proposal, high-rise building safety, and I call on Janet Finch-Saunders to move the motion.

Motion NDM8230 Janet Finch-Saunders, Jane Dodds, Rhys ab Owen
Supported by Gareth Davies, Joel James, Natasha Asghar
To propose that the Senedd:
1. Notes a proposal for a Bill to ensure that high-rise building developers are responsible for safety issues.
2. Notes that the purpose of this Bill would be to:
a) create a duty on developers to refund leaseholders for reasonable costs accrued due to building safety issues; and
b) prohibit any developer who refuses to remediate the fire safety defects on buildings they developed from being awarded planning permission for any new developments in Wales.

Motion moved.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. Now then, I will have to declare an interest in this—an interest I didn't know that I had, even yesterday as I sat here. So, I arrived home yesterday, at the apartments that I am in—I know that other Members are in also—and I had a letter from the property management company, which said that there's a joint survey of the external cladding that's been undertaken, and the initial report has come back, which suggests that remediation work will be required, and, due to the intolerable level of risk at the building, a waking watch must be installed whilst the installation of a heightened fire alarm system can be implemented. Waking watch is a fire safety system, where suitably trained staff continually patrol the floors and the exterior perimeter of a building to maintain the safety of its occupants from fire. The aim of a waking watch is to ensure there is sufficient warning in the event of a fire to support the evacuation strategy. I understand that yesterday there were two gentlemen wandering around in high-vis jackets with a horn, a foghorn-type thing, so if they noticed anything untoward they were on site. Now, I've only found this out today, so there'll be others who have yet, perhaps, to find this out. But what we do know is that there are thousands trapped in these leasehold apartments as we speak.
Now, the purpose of this proposal is to see this Welsh Parliament use its legislative power to back these trapped leaseholders. I'd also like to thank Rhys ab Owen and Jane Dodds, because this is something we feel cross-party and we feel about very strongly, and I know that they've been very supportive to date.
So, it has taken us, Dirprwy Lywydd, five years from the Grenfell tragedy to now reach the point where developers are signing the pact. It is good that this is taking place. Now, I've seen a letter sent last week by your deputy director for housing safety, regulation and standards. And it reads: 'The terms of the legal agreement that underpins the pact does not require developers to cover costs for interim measures, such as waking watches. However, it does require developers to address fire safety issues as soon as reasonably practicable so that interim measures are no longer required.' Now, the pact is a brilliant Michael-Gove-inspired stick. Now, for the sake of clarity, Minister, please can you provide your rationale for not requiring developers to cover costs for interim measures?

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: The reason why waking watches are required is because, such as in the case of one development in south Wales, an independent fire engineer, in consultation with south Wales fire and rescue service, recommended that an interim waking watch was the correct course of action to keep residents safe. The costs, however, should not fall on these victims, these leaseholders. Now, because I’m always at work during the day, I’m probably—you know, the times, the number of days I’m down here, I'm probably not going to be impacted by the people and seeing the people who are protecting everybody in those apartments; basically, I leave that behind. But there are those leaseholders, or landlords of properties, bought in all innocence, who have to now be aware of this.
The costs—. Oh, I have said that. You’ve already agreed to reimburse survey costs, where surveys took place prior to the launch of the Welsh building safety fund in September 2021. However, that is even on condition that the following criteria are met: the survey work must have taken place prior to September 2021; a procurement process must—and just on that, not everyone has actually been able to have that survey work undertaken by 2021—a procurement process must have been followed; the work must have been carried out by a suitably qualified person—who would argue with that—the survey report must be of an equivalent standard to those being carried out by the Welsh Government’s appointed surveyors. And therein lies a very grey area, because some people are finding out that they are in one of these very dangerous buildings. And we know, whilst we talk about Cladiators and cladding, as you have rightly pointed out, Minister, over many months here, there’s a lot more to it than that. There are properties where—. I know you’ve mentioned things like fire curtains; it’s not just a cladding scandal. The survey report is—. Oh, yes, I've said that. It makes no sense to me, though, that you are applying such strict criteria retrospectively. Every single person living in one of these buildings needs your help and support. So, you should be using the levers at your disposal to make access to support for every single householder and make it as easy as possible.
Another example of a Welsh Government barrier is that you have made no commitment to retrospectively pay for all works carried out. The Welsh building safety fund was launched in September 2021, over four years after Grenfell. It is perfectly reasonable to have expected concerned residents to have taken decisive action to make their homes safer in the time it took your Welsh Government to act. As it stands, access to support is felt to be incredibly difficult for these leaseholders. So now, we believe, they believe, and I think any reasonably minded person would believe, there is need now to use our law-making abilities to provide this justice for these individuals.
Now, I have had time to read a deed of bilateral contract between Welsh Ministers and any developer. It is noted in section 20—breaches and termination—that the Welsh Ministers may pursue any of the remedies available to the Welsh Ministers at law for such material breach, including those remedies referred to within clause 27.5. Clause 27.5 refers to damages, injunction and specific performance. The legislation before us today would put in law that any developer who refuses to remediate the fire safety defects on buildings that they had developed would be barred from being awarded planning permission for any new developments in Wales.
Now, whilst I would like this Welsh Parliament to consider options as to how the prohibition could be achieved, one option is replicating banning orders. In England, such orders are used by the first-tier tribunal to ban a landlord from letting housing in England, engaging in English letting agency work and engaging in English property management work. Another option would be introducing a TAN, a technical advice note, which makes a developer's past failure to remediate fire safety defects a valid ground for objection to any application they present. Or we can simply look to the Rt Hon Michael Gove MP's example, yet again, and replicate the responsible actors scheme. The regulations will enable eligible developers who do not join and comply with the scheme conditions—

Janet, I'm sorry to interrupt you, but you've used all of the time you were allocated for opening and closing, so I suggest that perhaps you want to finish there and close.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: Oh, sorry, I thought I had eight minutes to open and—.

No, eight minutes in total.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: Oh, right, okay. Well, I now implore all Members to support my proposal today that we now put this into law. That will protect these leaseholders who are innocent victims. Diolch.

I will give you a minute to sum up at the end, okay.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: Thank you.

Jane Dodds.

Jane Dodds AS: Thank you, Dirprwy Lywydd, and thank you to Janet for the opportunity to participate in this debate.

Jane Dodds AS: We have been here many times before, and I'm sure the Minister must be a tad frustrated that we are returning to it again, but it is the case that it is an issue that has not gone away, and/or it is that people are not having the communications that recognise the work that's being done. I'm pleased that this is a cross-party motion, and I'm just going to focus on three particular issues—three particular questions, if you like.
We know that some developers have signed a Government pledge to undertake and pay for remediation, but I'm concerned that the pact is not legally binding and I'd just like some clarity on that, please. The fallout from the pact in England, and steps taken, does show that anything without a legal basis will not drive change.
Secondly, if I could also understand if there is a willingness, obligation, commitment—call it what you will—following up on Janet's point, to pay for the unreasonable and ongoing costs associated with the very real building safety failures of the developers' making—.
Thirdly, and finally, something I just touched on in my opening remarks was: what communications plan to leaseholders, with clear timescales as well, is in place at the moment? Many of us know that, if you have information, if you're communicated with, then you will perhaps feel in a better position, your stress levels may feel a little bit lower and your mental health may be a little bit more stable. We know that many of these leaseholders are very stressed and they are suffering in terms of their mental health; that's from families and young people up to, particularly, older people—people who have retired and have put all of their life savings, in essence, into their property.
Janet has highlighted, and is now affected by, the concept of the waking watch, which people have paid thousands towards. This is a massive hole in their savings or in their income. So, I'm just going to finish there, but I'd just add this: I speak from sentiments of the many people who have contacted me, and I know many others in the Siambr as well, over many, many months, if not the past year, that what we have in place now is too little, too weak and too slow to act. I would like to hear from the Minister about how we address all those three elements. Thank you—diolch yn fawr iawn.

Rhys ab Owen.

Rhys ab Owen AS: Thank you, Dirprwy Lywydd, and thank you to Janet Finch-Saunders for bringing forward this important legislative proposal, and to Jane Dodds for her contribution.

Rhys ab Owen AS: Minister, you have committed on several occasions that developers and the building industry must take responsibility to remediate fire safety defects. I was pleased to hear in March that you were making the developers' pacts legally binding. Could you please update us on how many developers have now signed a legally binding contract with the Welsh Government?
You've mentionedseveral times before also about the many practical issues with regard to remediation work, such as who to prioritise and to ensure sufficient resources and skills. What practical support is the Welsh Government providing to tackle these issues?
You've also said that you will consider legislation and prohibition against developers that do not take responsibility. Campaigners are very frustrated that developers involved in deficient buildings are still being awarded planning permission and local government contracts. The UK Government have indicated that they will ban developers from future developments under sections 126 to 129 of the Building Safety Act 2022. Can you please update us on any action you will take against developers and whether you're providing any guidance to local authorities?
You'll be aware, Minister, that some residents have already taken their own legal action against developers under the Defective Premises Act 1972. Without a timetable from Welsh Government, and I understand the reasons you've given prior to today about the reasons you cannot give a timetable, they are of the view that the courts will deliver well before the Welsh Government. What would you say to these residents and are you concerned about different standards applying to the Defective Premises Act to the Building Safety Act?

Rhys ab Owen AS: I will conclude by quoting Non and Gwenallt Rees, two pensioners who live in Victoria Wharf, a stone's throw from here.
'Why are we as owners of flats responsible for facing the huge costs...created by others?'
That's why we support the Bill today and hope that the Senedd will support it too. Thank you.

Mike Hedges AC: There is a problem with high-rise buildings in Wales. This has become apparent following the Grenfell Tower tragedy. Residents, through no fault of their own, have been left with homes that are unsaleable and that require substantial expenditure on remedial work. I have two in Swansea East. The first is South Quay, which was built by Carillion. Carillion no longer exists, so this proposed legislation will not benefit residents in South Quay.
Carillion no longer exists, so the proposal to legislate to refund leaseholders for reasonable costs accrued due to building safety issues will do no good. There's no Carillion to make the payments, and the proposal that prohibits any developer who refuses to remediate the fire safety defects on buildings they develop from being awarded planning permission for any new developments in Wales—well, the company doesn't exist. How would it affect a company that does not exist?
My residents in South Quay are seriously concerned about the position that we're in at the moment. Carillion will not apply for planning permission, it won't apply for anything; it doesn't exist. I'm sure Carillion didn't only develop South Quay. This has left people seriously concerned that if they end up having to take legal action, how do you take it against something that has gone bankrupt?
For these buildings deemed orphan buildings by the Government, this proposed legislation is of no use, but the Minister has made offers, has made statements of support for these orphaned buildings, and I think that will do my constituents in South Quay a lot more good than this legislation.
Altamar is the other affected development, where Bellway Homes are involved as a developer. Altamar residents were advised that Bellway have signed the pact. This is definitely progress. It was also announced that payment for remedial work already done is being looked at in an internal process within Welsh Government, which, when complete, will be sent to Julie James for acceptance. I hope the Minister in her reply can provide an update on payment for the remedial work already done and a timeline for action by the developer.
What are small sums for Governments are very large sums for individuals. Some buildings, although not in Swansea, would have been built by single-purpose companies that, in the event of claims, can be easily liquidated and will not be applying for planning in the future.
If passed today, this will take over two years to go through the Senedd procedures. The Bill has to be written, the detailed legislation, followed by Stages 1, 2, 3 and 4 in the Senedd. Despite all these concerns I have, I'll be voting for it to show my support for my residents, but I think that those of you who have told them that this is a quick fix have misled them. This needs resolving now, well before this proposed legislation goes through the Senedd. People are hoping to see it resolved very quickly.
Of course, I will make a request to the Conservatives: will you refuse all political donations from the companies involved?

Mabon ap Gwynfor AS: I'd like to thank Janet Finch-Saunders for bringing this debate forward today, and Janet has been consistent in promoting this issue over the last couple of years, at least. The proposal ties in particularly well with the work that the Local Government and Housing Committee has been doing over the past few months, under the very skilful leadership of John Griffiths over there. And the committee has taken very important evidence during its inquiry, and has genuinely opened my eyes to many new things.
This proposal by Janet reflects a great deal of the work that has been done, and she has succeeded in summarising that in an adroit way in the motion, so I thank her for the work in that regard.
And as the Local Government and Housing Committee explored cladding and fire safety, what became extremely clear is that the problems in many of these buildings go beyond the specific issues under consideration here, and in fact, they show fundamental weaknesses in the safety regime and building standards. Indeed, I would go so far as to say that the sector has been like the wild west, with almost no oversight to ensure standards of construction and safety, and companies cutting corners significantly in order to increase their profits.
Here is a quote from one of the witnesses from Cardiff:

Mabon ap Gwynfor AS: 'if you look at the quality, it's a toxic industry. It's built by the lowest bidder...we had a soil stack problem in Celestia. The soil stacks are the pipes in the building that remove human waste, and one failed. And when we went behind—this is a very famous, iconic story now—they found a bend that was held up by an empty Starbucks cup. The reality is that a lot of these buildings were thrown up, and the level of quality and professionalism is just not there.'

Mabon ap Gwynfor AS: And here is further evidence, this time from a person from Swansea, who said:

Mabon ap Gwynfor AS: 'There's a floor-to-ceiling grill 2m wide, a louvred grille, with an automated actuator in it...this building was first built and occupied in 2004 or 2005. Two weeks ago, we did an in-depth survey ourselves and we found that the delivery retaining straps were still in place on five out of those 43 devices, and they were installed and never removed.'

Mabon ap Gwynfor AS: These are just a couple of examples, showing the poor standard of construction. Other evidence from people with various disabilities shows that they will be in significant danger in the event of a fire or emergency, with no real consideration being given to the needs of people with disabilities.
The proposal here today talks of banning any developer who refuses to rectify fire safety defects on buildings that have been developed by them from obtaining planning permission for any new developments in Wales. This echoes the calls that I and Plaid Cymru have made in this Chamber on several occasions now, and so, it should surprise no-one that we support this. I'm looking forward to hearing the Minister's response to this request in particular, and I hope that she thinks deeply about this option in her considerations.
Perhaps the Minister can also give us an update in her response on the discussions taking place with the developers. Have Taylor Wimpey, Crest Nicholson and Barrett Homes now signed the pact binding them to carry out fire prevention work on high-rise and mid-sized buildings in Wales? Also, have Redrow, McCarthy and Stone, Lovell, Vistry, and Persimmon, who have already signed the new pact, started this work? Perhaps we can get a progress report from the Minister in this regard. Thank you.

I call on the Minister for Climate Change, Julie James.

Julie James AC: Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd, and thank you for the opportunity to discuss once more the important issue of building safety in Wales, and so soon after the previous debate held on 22 March.
My position has not changed: developers should indeed take responsibility for fire issues in buildings they have developed. And here in Wales, we have not restricted this to high-rise buildings of 18m and over, as suggested by colleagues who have instigated this debate, but, instead, we've extended that responsibility to include medium-rise buildings of 11m and over in height. Work is under way to address fire safety in such buildings.
However, I completely agree there needs to be a comprehensive reform of building safety across the lifecycle of buildings; that is why as well as addressing fire safety issues in our existing building stock, we are taking forward a significant programme of reform to establish a fit-for-purpose building safety regime in Wales.
We have already set out our aspirations for culture change in the way buildings are designed and constructed in the White Paper, 'Safer Buildings in Wales', which was published in January 2021. It also confirmed our ambition to establish a robust and coherent regulatory system that will hold those responsible to account and ensure accurate up-to-date information is held on all in-scope multi-occupied residential buildings. This includes the identification of an accountable person who will be responsible for managing fire safety and wider building safety risks.

Julie James AC: I've made a commitment to work with developers to ensure fire safety defects are remediated at their cost. To this end, I wrote to over 50 of the UK's largest residential developers to ask them to confirm their position in Wales. All these developers have responded. The developers either confirmed they had developed no residential buildings of 11m or over in height in Wales, confirmed they had already remediated buildings, or have signed up to the Welsh Government's developers pact. I made a statement, Dirprwy Lywydd, to this effect in October in this very Chamber. At the time, I also made reference to two developers who were yet to engage. Both of these developers have now been in touch and confirmed they have not developed residential buildings of 11m or over in height in Wales.
The pact itself is a public rather than legal commitment, but to reassure Janet and Jane and Mabon and others in this Chamber who have asked a question over the past months, the legally binding contract to underpin the pact has been prepared and shared with developers. Let me just be crystal clear. I have said this a number of times and I will say it again. All of the developers we expected to sign our legal contract have done so. I remember your comments following my oral statement, Janet, when developers had indicated their intent to sign, that an intent to sign was not worth the paper it's written on, so I hope this news will give you some comfort.
Given that not all developers have signed up in England, I do appreciate the need to lay regulations there, but this is just not the case in Wales. In Wales, with a binding legal agreement in place, we are able to pursue a contractual resolution to issues rather than take the legislative approach. My colleague Mike Hedges has just set out the problems with the timescale on a legislative approach, and Janet, you very helpfully read out the parts of the contract that set out why we have a contractual remedy. The scale of the problem in Wales is not the same as that in England, and therefore we have taken these proportionate steps to address building safety.
The developers who have signed, for Mabon's information's in particular—Dirprwy Lywydd, I have read this into the Record before and I'll read it in again—are Redrow, Bellway, Barratt Homes, Taylor Wimpey, Lovell Homes, Persimmon, Crest Nicholson, Vistry, Countryside and McCarthy and Stone, so some of the biggest residential developers operating in the UK. Between them, these developers have identified 121 buildings of 11m or over in height, of which 84 will be taken forward through this agreement, the remainder of which either do not require works, have already been remediated, or have works ongoing.
We will now use these contracts to ensure works are completed to an appropriate standard within as short a timescale as is possible, to end the absolutely undoubted suffering of leaseholders and allow them to move forward with their lives. I've also been pleased to hear of developers who have fully stepped up to their moral responsibility and reimbursed leaseholders for any costs they have incurred to rectify fire safety issues in their buildings prior to these agreements being signed.
I have also recently announced the first cohort of 28 orphan buildings to be taken forward—those without an identified developer, or where the developer has ceased trading. As well as supporting remediation works on these buildings, I have also agreed that costs incurred by leaseholders should be reimbursed, where they were for works to rectify fire safety issues relating to the construction of their building.
And just to be clear, Janet—you read out the criteria for that—I make no excuse for that. This is public money; of course it should be paid out when the surveys have been correctly conducted and are reliable to be relied on. The reason for the cut-off date is that after that date you could have an expression of interest and do it through our survey, so there's no need for you to do a separate survey at that date, and to this second you can still do that. So, if you're aware of a building who thinks they've missed the boat because they didn't commission their own survey, they don't need to. All they have to do is put an expression of interest in, and our survey will take over from that point.
It is absolutely not right that leaseholders should be out of pocket for fire safety issues not of their making, and I've always been clear that they should not bear these costs. As Mike Hedges also pointed out, for an orphan building where somebody has gone out of business, it would not be possible to pursue the route that you outlined, and therefore we have picked up the orphan buildings and we will remediate those buildings at public expense.
The choice I have made is to focus on actually getting the job done. I do not apologise for this approach. I take these responsibilities very seriously and I have made my commitment to work hard for leaseholders and residents affected by these fire issues very plain. That being said, I've always been clear in the past and remain clear today that I am prepared to go down a legislative route if developers do not act appropriately to rectify fire safety issues in their buildings, but at present this is just not necessary. I have a contractual route to ensure developers do what is needed to make these buildings as safe from fire as is possible. To take a legislative approach, which would pull valuable resources away from work to ensure all buildings in Wales have a route to remediation, whether they have an identified developer or not, would simply not be a good use of resources.
So, Dirprwy Lywydd, I think I've comprehensively set out why I think this Bill is not necessary or needed. Most of what it does is either already being done or will be included in the fire safety building reform Bill, which has already been trailed to the Senedd. Diolch.

Janet, I did say I'd give you some time, so if you could sum up and respond to the debate.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: Thank you, Dirprwy Lywydd. I would just like to thank the Minister and indeed everybody, in particular Jane Dodds and Rhys ab Owen, and everybody else who have spoken on this. I brought this forward with Jane and Rhys. We've been dealing with the people affected by this, these innocent victims, and it is now believed that this legislative proposal is very valid indeed. And I would ask all Members to sign up to that and vote for it today. Thank you.

The proposal is to note the proposal. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Yes, there's objection. I will defer voting under this item until voting time.

Voting deferred until voting time.

7. Debate on the Local Government and Housing Committee Report—Homelessness

Item 7 today is the debate on the Local Government and Housing Committee report on homelessness. I call on the chair of the committee to move the motion—John Griffiths.

Motion NDM8267 John Griffiths
To propose that the Senedd:
Notes the report of the Local Government and Housing Committee, ‘Homelessness’, which was laid in the Table Office on 9 March 2023.

Motion moved.

John Griffiths AC: Diolch, Ddirprwy Lywydd. I'm pleased to open today's debate on the Local Government and Housing Committee's report on homelessness. We made 24 recommendations to the Welsh Government that were accepted fully or in principle, and I would like to start by thanking all those who contributed to our inquiry.
We began our work by meeting informally with individuals and groups who had lived experience of homelessness, and services that directly support them. This helped us better understand the main issues faced by service users. As with much else, Dirprwy Lywydd, the COVID-19 pandemic drastically changed the approach to homelessness in Wales. The 'no-one left out' approach adopted by the Welsh Government and its partners meant that everyone in need of shelter is entitled to it. This has undoubtedlysaved many lives, and we've seen and commend the extraordinary efforts by local authorities and support services to move forward in this way.
Following the pandemic, the Welsh Government's ending homelessness action plan, published in 2021, sets out a number of actions, with the goal of moving to a rapid rehousing approach. We heard that the changes in policies have created a drastic increase in the number of homeless cases in Wales, as well as new challenges for local authorities and homelessness support services. We also know that the context has changed again since the action plan was published, and that the Minister for Climate Change intends to update the plan this year. Minister, we would be grateful if you can update us as to when you expect a refreshed action plan to be in place.
The demand for temporary accommodation has grown significantly, which has impacted local authorities, staff providing services, and the people experiencing homelessness. We looked at this in detail, as well as at the supply, quality and suitability of temporary accommodation. We were concerned to hear of the poor standard of some temporary accommodation, and the impact on the people housed there. For example, evidence consistently suggested that people placed in hotels and bed and breakfast accommodation, particularly families, faced difficult living conditions due to the lack of adequate facilities and, usually, cramped conditions. Also, the rules of some temporary accommodation mean that many lose their usual freedoms, by being unable to have visitors and having to abide by curfews, exacerbating the feelings of isolation and loneliness. This needs to be improved urgently. We made a number of recommendations relating to the improvement of standards and the supply of temporary accommodation.
We were particularly concerned that people do not know how long they will have to stay in temporary accommodation before finding a settled home. As a result, people feel in limbo and as if their life is on hold, which can have a detrimental effect on their mental health as well as impacting on other aspects of their life, like work and relationships. We recognise the difficulties faced by local authorities in addressing this situation, given the lack of move-on accommodation. However, it is important that people living in temporary accommodation are given regular, realistic updates on how long their stay is likely to be. We therefore recommended that the Welsh Government should review how local authorities ensure people staying in temporary accommodation are kept informed of their ongoing housing status. This recommendation was accepted in principle. The Welsh Government's response says that it is developing a document aimed at disseminating good practice examples surrounding support and move-on from temporary accommodation. So, I wonder, Minister, whether you are able to share with the committee that information when it becomes available.

John Griffiths AC: We heard calls from stakeholders for a homelessness regulator, particularly to have oversight over temporary accommodation standards. We were persuaded by the evidence received, and see the merit in establishing one in the future. We were therefore disappointed that this recommendation was only accepted in principle. We would urge the expert review panel, established to make recommendations for reform of current housing legislation, to give serious consideration to establishing a homelessness regulator.
During our evidence gathering, we heard about the importance of tackling homelessness using a multi-agency approach. We recognise the extraordinary work that support services do to help people experiencing homelessness, and we were particularly concerned about the impact of the current situation on staff. We recommended an increase to the housing support grant allocation, as well as a review of the guidance for the grant. This grant is crucial to fund important homelessness prevention services, which are currently needed more than ever. We were therefore disappointed that these recommendations were only accepted in principle. Despite the grant remaining at £166.8 million in cash terms, given inflation, this is a real-terms reduction.
Dirprwy Lywydd, we are deeply concerned about the immense pressure that staff working in the sector are currently under, and the impact of this pressure on recruitment and retention, not to mention morale and well-being. We welcome the Welsh Government's homelessness and housing support recruitment campaign, which ended at the end of March this year. We would be grateful if the Minister could share any findings as to the success of the recruitment campaign with us.
A large part of our work looked at housing supply, with a lack of social housing being a fundamental cause of homelessness in Wales. We heard about a number of related factors contributing to the current homelessness situation, including a lack of the right type of social housing homes in the right locations, as well as a lack of affordable homes. This problem extends to the private rented sector, and we heard about significant shortfalls in local housing allowance. We heard that market rents were simply unaffordable in many areas, and we were particularly concerned to hear that some local authorities had no properties at all available at LHA rates.
Some witnesses suggested that better data on rents would help inform discussions on levels of local housing allowance as well as future work on rent controls, and that Rent Smart Wales could undertake this work. The Welsh Government's response to our report states that consideration of mechanisms for improving rental data in Wales will be included within the Green Paper and subsequent White Paper on fair rents. We look forward to considering the Green Paper next summer.
We also heard of the challenges in finding suitable homes to meet the demands of single people in temporary accommodation. We were told of a significant lack of appropriate, affordable, one-bedroomed accommodation, and that more needs to be doneto address this. Some called for legislation to ensure the development of one-bedroomed properties, as developers may be unlikely to willingly change direction themselves, as it's less commercially viable to build smaller homes. We also heard that there is a need to look at the way housing need is being calculated when drafting local development plans.
The transitional accommodation capital programme includes 390 one-bedroomed properties, but we feel that more needs to be done to increase this type of accommodation. We therefore recommended that the Welsh Government should explore all possible options for increasing the availability of one-bedroomed accommodation. This was accepted in principle, with the Minister stating that it is the responsibility of local authorities to undertake periodic reviews of housing need, through the local housing market assessment process, and that work has been undertaken to align the social housing grant funding process more closely with evidence of local housing need. We would urge the Welsh Government to work closely with local authorities to ensure the provision of more one-bedroomed properties.
It is also important that we make best use of our existing housing stock. We were concerned to hear that there is variation among registered social landlords in making vacant properties available for new tenants, and that properties too often lie empty. We recommended that the Welsh Government should set out what data it collects on social housing vacancies, including the time taken to let properties when they become vacant, reasons why properties remain vacant and how it supports social landlords to ensure properties are available for letting. The Minister accepted this in principle, stating that the collection of real-time social housing data is a matter under consideration. We would urge the Welsh Government to give this serious consideration, as empty homes are contributing to the housing crisis and to homelessness.
We must reduce the reliance on temporary accommodation in Wales. A fundamental cause of homelessness is the lack of social housing supply in Wales, but the private rented sector also has a part to play. We will be undertaking further work on social housing supply and looking at the private rented sector in the autumn term. All options for boosting housing supply need to be looked into. Dirprwy Lywydd, diolch yn fawr.

Sam Rowlands MS: I'd like to start by thanking my fellow committee members for their work on this report. It's of course a hugely important topic, and I was very pleased to play just a small part in its production, but also to thank our clerking team, research teams and all those who shared evidence as part of the report.
For brevity, Members will be pleased I just want to focus on a couple of recommendations in the report that really stood out to me, because, of course, the Chairman has already given an eloquent outline of the items of the report, in particular recommendation 14, which says that Welsh Government should ensure that Rent Smart Wales collects data on the number of private landlords leaving the sector and their reasons for doing so. I think we'd all agree that the role of private landlords is really significant in terms of tackling homelessness and finding people a place to live. Indeed, many people across Wales are supported by private landlords, and if landlords keep properties in the system, then, clearly, fewer people will have to be homeless. And we know the councils are spending huge amounts of money in this area of work already, and the decline in the number of private landlords has a risk of making a crisis even worse. So, I think it's important to collect that data on why private landlords are leaving the sector. And it's imperative that Welsh Government policy isn't aimed at driving out private landlords and they can learn as to why many are leaving at the moment.
The second recommendation I want to draw Members' attention to is recommendation 15, which I think, probably, in the grand scheme of things, is the most important recommendation in the report. It relates to how Welsh Government should set out how it is working with the private rented sector to improve the supply of quality, affordable homes, including what actions it has explored to incentivise landlords to stay in the sector. I think, Members, this dual-pronged approach is a pragmatic way to help tackle the homelessness problem in the short, medium and long term. We know that not enough homes are being built in Wales, and of course that doesn't just deal with the problem right now in terms of homelessness, but longer term problems, especially for younger people trying to access housing right across Wales.
I raised yesterday with the First Minister my concern around policy decisions that are making some developers or social landlords—it's making it impossible to build homes. In particular, the Welsh Government policy on phosphates, where we see, literally, houses being built on the English side of a field but not able to be developed on the Welsh side of the field. I understand and appreciate the reason why some of that policy is in place, but we did hear in our committee from Wrexham council, the Chartered Institute of Housing Cymru, the Welsh Local Government Association, how they have all identified how the restrictions are a direct barrier to house building. Indeed, it's restrictions like this—I now understand that the average cost of a three-bedroom, semi-detached social house is around £240,000 to build. So, for every £1 million being spent on building social housing in Wales, you get on average four homes. So you can see the challenges that are being faced, in significant part, to do with some of the policy decisions being put in place that make it very difficult for social landlords to build the houses that are required urgently.
So, I think it needs an urgent solution. The current situation, in my view, is not good enough in relation to this. I think it should be an absolute priority for Welsh Government and I hope this report, as well as other work that I know Government is undertaking, will go some way to stimulate this urgent action.So, again, Deputy Presiding Officer, thank you to committee colleagues and everyone who contributed to the report. It's a really important issue and I hope the Government continues to take the recommendations very seriously. Thank you very much.

Mabon ap Gwynfor AS: I'm grateful for the opportunity to contribute to this debate on the report by the Housing and Local Government Committee on homelessness.At the outset, I would like to express my admiration and thanks to the Chair, John Griffiths, who steered the inquiry so ably, and I would also like to thank all the members of the committee and the support team. If I may, I’d like to quickly put on record my thanks to the Senedd's excellent researcher on these matters, Jonathan Baxter, who has now moved to work for the Government.
The report is self-explanatory, and it is good to see that the Government has either accepted all of the recommendations in full or accepted them in principle. The trouble with accepting recommendations in principle, of course, is that we know that we will not see action in these areas.But, with regard to all of the important recommendations in the report, I would like to draw your attention to two specific ones. But before that, I'd like to talk about Sara.
Sara Lewis is a special woman. She lives in Aberllefenni, a small quarrying village in southern Meirionnydd, near Corris. Sara was born and raised in the village, and raised her family there. Unfortunately, she suffers from chronic obstructive pulmonary disease, which means that she has enormous difficulty breathing and doing any work. She is therefore dependent on the state's safety net for her income, but despite that, she has tried to establish her own crafts business, and wishes to go to university in order to obtain a degree to improve her job opportunities. Unfortunately for Sara, her landlord sold her house—and several other houses in the village—and in the wake of this, the new landlords increased her rent by 26 per cent. The sad truth is that Sara does not have the financial means to pay that kind of rent. The landlords’ excuse is that they have raised the rent to match the average rent in the area. That's no reason. That average has surged over the last few years due to greed and the rise of Airbnbs and so forth and no mechanism to control the rent. It does not reflect the ability of local people to pay.
She is seeking advocates to help her, but these advocates are becoming more and more scarce as workers are leaving the homeless support sector. Her local housing allowance has been capped at around £300, but her rent is £550. She doesn't have the financial means to make up that difference. She is now under threat of being made homeless, and having to move out of her home and community.
Sara is not alone; there are others in Aberllefenni in a similar situation, never mind people in other communities across Wales. The homelessness system isn't just creaking, it is breaking, and the statistics prove it. In February, there were almost 10,000 people in temporary accommodation, and a third of them were children under 16.Not only that, the sector that is supposed to support people who find themselves in such distress is slowly disintegrating. Almost a third of the staff who work in this area and are funded by the housing support grant receive a salary that is lower than the living wage. The sad irony is that almost one in five of the workforce are finding it difficult to pay their rent, and over half are finding it difficult to pay their bills. Therefore, members of the workforce are leaving to look for other jobs, which means that there is no support, advice or specialist advocacy services available for people like Sara, who find themselves homeless or facing homelessness.
Our inquiry clearly showed that the Westminster Government needs to increase the local housing allowance to reflect the increase that has been seen in private rents. I know that this Government has already tried to pressure the London Government into doing this, but we have to make our voice heard on this again, and recommendation 16 calls for this.Of course, this is a short-term solution. It doesn't make any sense that public funds are being transferred directly into the landlords' bank accounts. So, in the long term, we must see a significant shift in our use of public money, using it to build houses under public ownership. That is part of the long-term solution to ending homelessness.
But, one matter that is within the reach of the Government here is the housing support grant. We were all extremely disappointed to see that there had been no progress to fund this in the budget. Without these specialist services, we will see homelessness of all kinds increasing. The providers of these essential services are already leaving and are not submitting bids for contract tenders. This crisis is about to get worse, so it is extremely important to see the Government implement recommendation 10, not just in principle but through action. I look forward to hearing the Minister's response.

Jenny Rathbone AC: I'd like to thank the Local Government and Housing Committee for a really interesting report. This is something that affects, I imagine, all Members, but it certainly is a major problem in my constituency. I think you've captured a lot of the challenges and things that we really need to reflect on.
I recently was supporting a mother who became homeless with two children, following eviction from a private tenancy, simply because the tenancy was ended. Following a period of sofa surfing, the Housing Options service in Cardiff provided them with hostel accommodation. This was extremely difficult for this family, because there was a huge amount of disruption going on in the hostel—lots of sleepless nights—and the distance from the children's school meant that there was a lot of non-attendance or late arrivals. So, the mother decided that her children would be better off staying with a family member and that she would sleep in her car, splitting up the family, which was already traumatised by not having a home and no nearer to resolving their housing circumstances. Once she engaged with my office, we were able to persuade her to re-engage with housing services, and, hopefully, they'll be able to eventually get allocated a house that is fit for their needs.
But, it really does illustrate the shortage of social housing that's needed for families. Private accommodation is absolutely fine for students, because they're passing through, in terms of where they're going to live this year, next year and the following year. But, if you're somebody with children going to school, the threat of being kicked out of where you've got your home, with no control over where you're going to end up next, means that you're at risk of your children having to leave that school and go to another school, which is an adverse childhood experience, in my view. Private housing simply can't provide the level of stability that you need to offer to children where possible, but it is something we rely on nevertheless, but it isn't the best.
I dealt with somebody else recently who was in her late fifties and she was accommodated in a YMCA hostel for nine months, and this she found very difficult, because it was mainly young people, and they were behaving like young people. And she suffers from asthma, which got drastically worse as a result of being in a very uncomfortable environment for her, which sort of emphasised the unsatisfactory nature of her situation. Thankfully, she has now been rehoused in permanent sheltered accommodation, and it underlines the importance of having appropriate accommodation for people of all ages, and over fifties accommodation can be fantastic for somebody in that sort of situation.
Now, many young men refuse to engage with Housing Options simply because they think that it will be like the experience they've heard about at the Huggard, where I'm constantly being told about people taking drugs, and related problems going on there. Now, whether it's true or not, it obviously becomes an active barrier for people seeking support, and if you talk to people on the street, that's one of the reasons they give for being on the street, rather than getting the housing that they are being offered. I share the Wallich's reservations about large hostels, because I think once you have gatherings of people who have, clearly, problems—that's why they've become homeless in the main—they have challenges, and putting loads of people with problems together is not a useful cocktail, and it needs really skilful people. Every time I go to the Wallich, I'm impressed by their ability to actively manage the situation and give support informally and formally to people in temporary accommodation to give them the skills they need to hold down a tenancy.
Brilliant accommodation is provided by Cadwyn housing for young mums with children who have become homeless because they simply have never developed the skills to hold down tenancies, because they don't understand that you've got to put the rent by first of all, rather than going out and buying other things they might like to have. They don't understand that the rent must be paid first of all, and also, that you need the skills required to look after children, and how to cook, et cetera. They do an outstanding job.
I think the solutions have to be around more prefabricated buildings, because some of the stuff that's on Bute Street, just around the corner, is fantastic for single people; it gives them safe accommodation, their own front door, and modern prefabricated buildings. We built 170,000 prefabricated buildings between 1942 and 1951, and a further 500,000 after that, and most of them are still being lived in. You know, we thought—

Jenny, you need to conclude now, please.

Jenny Rathbone AC: —we thought they were only going to be 10 minutes, but actually, modern timber-framed homes can be constructed on site in two to three weeks. And I appreciate that the Welsh Government hasn't got the capital to meet the need, so we need to have a look at the role of pension funds, because this is a good investment. Investing in housing provides a guaranteed return on rent, and we need to have more solutions to deal with what is a very challenging problem.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: I refer Members to my published declarations of interest.I'd like to thank the committee and the Chair for the report, but how sad, isn't it, that, in 2023, such a report is needed, and to learn of the thousands of people homeless or waiting in need in temporary accommodation. And when you think about it, there are 90,000 social homes needed, with nearly 10,000 in February in temporary accommodation, of which, shockingly, 3,000 are children.
Now, I noticed—. I'll talk about recommendation 3 first of all, which calls on the Welsh Government to explore opportunities for further funding for temporary and transitional accommodation. Now, while it's needed, I can't help feeling, myself, that we should be actually looking more at the cause, rather than the symptoms—I hope I got that the right way around.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: Whilst TACP was awarded no specific additional funding within the 2023-24 Welsh Government budget, it just—. I can’t understand why that funding wasn’t increased. But I do acknowledge, Minister, that you’re now making £15 million extra available to local authorities. But, when you look at some of the figures and the massive increases, I’m not too sure how far £15 million is going to go around 22 local authorities. Now, apparently, the funding has been allocated on a formula basis to ensure a fair distribution. But, I guess, in terms of the formula, how this will work, in terms of the numbers—our numbers in Conwy county have just shot up, tripled in the last two or three years—so, whether you could just give us some information as to how that formula will work going forward.
Now, in response to recommendation 4, you’ve stated that Welsh Government is developing a document aimed at disseminating good practice. Now, more paperwork is not going to help the fact that some local authority officers have higher-than-average case loads, nor is it going to tackle the fact that maintaining regular contact with people staying in temporary accommodation is hard. This is a problem in my own local authority. Every month, I hold a regular housing surgery with Cartrefi Conwy and Conwy Housing Solutions, and I have to say, it's—. I finish my weekend and I go home having met several families, several children, where they are absolutely desperate for a roof above their heads.
Now, there is an urgent need to consider the standard of those living or trapped, almost, now in temporary accommodation. And when we say ‘temporary accommodation’, we used to talk about six to eight weeks; I’ve got children and families, Minister, who’ve been in temporary accommodation for 14, 15 months. And they just think, ‘That’s it; this is all there is to life.' I’ve had people coming in to see me on my Friday afternoons and my staff during the week, saying, ‘We just feel suicidal; we see no hope.'
Now, recommendation 6 urges you to explore what can be done to monitor and improve standards. And we hear, so often, criticism of the private sector landlords, and yet, basically, I’m getting complaints now about these people who run the temporary accommodation, and they can be hostels, pubs, B&Bs, guest houses. And some of the issues that come forward, where the property isn’t habitable, really, or fit for families to live in—. I’d really like to know, Minister, how you feel that you’re going to be able to address quite quickly the fact that they have no kitchen, no washing machine—a sink in a hotel room for three or four people, where they have to sometimes—. I think they’re given a microwave sometimes. So, they have to wash and learn to prepare food in the same sink. It’s just—. I’ve even heard of families being put above licensed premises. So, you can imagine how this is impacting on them.
Now, have you thought—? I’m not really into commissioners, but have you not thought of having a designated—. Apart from the Senedd Commission, of course. But have you thought of having a responsible person who could work with local authorities, Minister, to actually help them with the temporary accommodation, help to—? Almost like someone monitoring where these people are staying in terms of this sort of temporary accommodation.
I’ve also asked you previously to review Rent Smart Wales. Is there not more work that they could be doing? If they’re collecting data on private landlords, Minister, could they not be also—? Or some other—[Inaudible.]—within your department, where they could be actually helping? We need consistency. We need some form of permanence now moving forward. We need more houses built.
Yesterday, I was in a forum where we were told that even just to stand still—just to stand still—. Even at 12,000 to 14,000 houses a year, that would be just standing still. We’re now—. If there are 6,000 being built, you can see we're falling behind. So, my plea is: empty homes brought back into homes, and also more houses to be built. Diolch. Thank you.

I call on the Minister for Climate Change, Julie James.

Julie James AC: Diolch, Llywydd. Firstly, I would also like to thank the committee for the opportunity to respond to this debate today. The report raises awareness of the critical issue of homelessness across Wales, and the recommendations put forward by the committee have been informed, as the committee Chair said, by the voices of the many partners engaged in the sector, and crucially by people with lived experience of using homelessness services. I would also like to take this opportunity to thank each and every one of them for their time and for the evidence they provided to the inquiry.

The Llywydd took the Chair.

Julie James AC: Senedd Members will be well aware of the Welsh Government's ambition to help end homelessness across Wales by making it rare, brief and unrepeated. It is absolutely vital that we have a shared understanding, not only of the Government's long-term ambition and the steps needed to achieve it, but also of the immediate pressures in the system and how we can work together across sectors and public services to address them. In Wales, unlike the rest of the UK, we have maintained the 'no-one left out' approach taken since the start of the pandemic. This has highlighted the true scale of homelessness in Wales, which has been exacerbated by the cost-of-living crisis. I'm afraid, Llywydd, I cannot let this opportunity pass to say that the contributions from the two Conservatives here today seem to be made without any recognition whatsoever of the current cost-of-living crisis and its contribution to the driving of homelessness across Wales, which is something they really should reflect on.
We remain committed to moving to a rapid rehousing approach and reducing our dependency on temporary accommodation. I do recognise and acknowledge that the current pressures in the system mean this. The end goal remains the same, but it will take us longer to achieve than we would like. Now, as we all know, anyone at all can find themselves homeless, and for many different reasons. As a result of the current cost-of-living crisis, many more people are finding the need to reach out for advice and access to services, which they would never, ever have thought they would ever have to use.
It's really clear from the committee's findings and our own data that housing and homelessness teams are facing increasing presentations, and I want to take this opportunity to express my continuing gratitude to them, and those in the support sector, for everything they do to help people facing or experiencing homelessness. They have supported and implemented the Welsh Government's 'no-one left out' approach, demonstrating what working together can achieve. This partnership working must continue, and it will continue, as people are very dedicated to it, and we need to strengthen it as we face these new and future challenges.
On the point of the budget situation, I absolutely accept the budget situation is not what we would like it to be. We have put £166.7 million into the budget. That maintains the 30 per cent increase from 2020 to 2021. I would very much have liked to have increased it again this year, but this is the worst budget settlement we have ever had, and even just maintaining that 30 per cent increase was a push. But if we can, we will increase that budget—I absolutely accept the point being made.
We recognise that the significant challenge and enabler to ending homelessness in Wales is, of course, increasing the supply of affordable homes. As part of our programme for government, we are actively working towards providing 20,000 good-quality homes for social rent, with all new builds being low carbon. We've also developed creative initiatives to further support increasing the availability of homes, including widening the scope of leasing scheme Wales and developing the transitional accommodation capital programme to provide flexibility within the system.
But, again, I'm sorry to bring it back to the Conservatives, but both the contributions really didn't take this into account. We absolutely have to unfreeze local housing allowance. It makes no economic sense. It makes no social sense. It's not just. It's not right. It's driving people out of the private rented sector. I simply do not understand the rationale for it, and I'm very happy to engage with either one of you outside the Chamber if you can explain what on earth the rationale for freezing local housing allowance is. It makes absolutely no sense at all, and it really needs to be put back to 50 per cent, or at the very least the 30 per cent that the Conservatives used to maintain it at. It's completely ridiculous.
And I'm afraid, Sam, arguing that we should ignore the phosphate problems in our rivers and build substandard homes on the banks of them is really not the way to address the supply problem. I do not have, Llywydd, anything like the time it would take me to explain what we're doing in that regard, but I can refer Members, as John, the committee Chair, said, to the written response I provided to the committee on each of the recommendations. I simply don't have the time to address them all today.
The transitional programme does, though, provide homes to assist people to move on from temporary accommodation into longer term provision. During 2022-23, we invested another £76 million to deliver 936 properties and additional homes, which will be funded this year and next. We absolutely recognise the importance of finding suitable homes, sustainable homes, for people as quickly as possible. The report highlights that homelessness brings with it significant negative consequences for individuals and families who find themselves in that position. Families who become homeless face other disruptions in areas of their lives as a direct result. We know that it affects education, employment, access to health advice services and mental health support services. Lack of access in all of these areas accumulates to further exacerbate an individual's or family's circumstances and experience. The consequential trauma, as the committee well found, will frequently result in a long-lasting detrimental impact on that individual and their future prospects. That is why—I can't speak now—the implications of being homeless are so much more than not having a home. It is all too often not having adequate access to healthcare, education, employment as well, and all of that compounds and hampers a person's ability to function as part of society and impacts their resilience and drastically affects their quality of life.
In taking forward our work to end homelessness, we recognise all of those things, and it's why our focus is on preventing homelessness in the first place, and, where it cannot be prevented, ensuring it is brief and unrepeated. This is set out in our ending homelessness action plan, which includes the introduction of the concept of rapid rehousing across Wales, focusing on that prevention activity. It focuses on supporting individuals at an early stage to gain access to support services and advice, delivering a person-centred trauma-informed service to help people through the housing system and to access the right housing for them as quickly as possible. This does not mean instant access to housing, but a quicker support service into the right home for their individual needs. Evidence shows that a multi-agency approach results in sustained tenancies for people in long-term settled homes in a much more informed way.
We work closely with local authorities and wider partners, like social landlords and support providers, to make the shift towards rapid rehousing. Rapid rehousing transition plans are being developed and relationship managers are liaising closely with authorities to ensure support and implementation, identify risks to delivery and recognise and share best practice. We all know new policies and action plans shape service provision and support our aspirations to improve the lives of people in Wales, but it's legislation that sets out the duties of public bodies, and clearly there is an expectation on how partners will develop and provide the support that will make homelessness rare, brief and unrepeated.
So, later this year, I will publish a White Paper, which will set out the policy and legislative proposals to strengthen our approach to homelessness prevention and supporting households who find themselves without a home. This programme of work is being taken forward as part of our co-operation agreement with Plaid Cymru, working closely with partners and with people with lived experience front and centre of that work. I acknowledge the considerable and unprecedented pressure in the homelessness system. The transformative reform we are driving forward through our ending homelessness action plan to move us to a system of prevention and rapid rehousing is the way we will address these pressures in both the short and longer term. The expert review panel is currently in session, and will make recommendations to me in the summer, to answer the timescale point that the committee Chair raised.
The committee's recommendations align closely with the actions set out in our action plan, and, for those of you who have seen my written response to the committee, you will see that I have accepted the recommendations—all or in principle—and, just to address the point brought up by Mabon in particular, the ones that are addressed in principle are not because there isn't a plan associated with them, but in almost all of them—I think all of them, but almost all of them, certainly—because we're already doing something, it's just slightly different to the way that the committee made their recommendation. So, we absolutely accept the point of the recommendation, but we're already doing something in that that didn't quite fit. So, I don't want you to think that the 'in principle' approach means we don't accept it; we absolutely do.
The policies of the Welsh Government and the approach taken since the pandemic, together with the tireless actions of our local authority housing teams and third sector partners, are helping us take the huge steps forward that we need to do. We've started a journey, but, as the committee recommendations illustrate, it needs increased partnership working and actions from all of us to reach the goal of ending homelessness across Wales. So, Llywydd, once again, my thanks to the committee for their report and recommendations, and to those who took the time to provide evidence and inform these findings. I think, together, we really can make homelessness rare, brief and unrepeated across Wales.

The Chair, John Griffiths, to reply to the debate.

John Griffiths AC: Diolch yn fawr, Llywydd. I'd like to start by thanking all who have taken part in the debate and committee members for their commitment, and the clerking team and research staff, because as a committee and predecessor committees we've done a lot of work on housing issues and homelessness issues over quite an extended period of time, but it is something we certainly intend to stick with, because of the importance of this agenda.
Sam mentioned the role of the private rented sector, and I think we're all agreed that we need to see a bigger role for the private rented sector. We need to enable and facilitate and encourage, and find ways of enabling that sector to play a bigger part in providing housing for our people here in Wales.
Also, I think, in terms of the phosphate issues that Sam mentioned and the Minister addressed, obviously this is a significant current issue and does have to be addressed. I know that the Minister and, indeed, the First Minister have pointed to some of the meetings that have taken place to pull the key partners together not to apportion blame, but to find practical solutions to get beyond these issues, and I think that must be the spirit of the approach that we go forward with, but it does need to be an urgent approach.
I was very pleased that Mabon referred to Jonathan Baxter. I've just spoken about the commitment of the clerking team and the research staff, and that certainly was well demonstrated by Jonathan, who, as Mabon has said, has now gone to Welsh Government. So, Welsh Government's gain is the committee's and the Research Service's loss, here in the Senedd, but we certainly wish Jonathan all the best for the future and thank him very much for the work that he's done, again over a period of years on housing issues, for this committee and predecessor committees.
Could I thank Mabon as well, Llywydd, and indeed Jenny Rathbone, for putting a human face, really, to the issues that we face? I think we're all conscious that you can look at the statistics and obviously they tell a very powerful story, but it's when you meet families and individuals at the rough end of this situation that it really comes home to you in terms of the impact that homelessness and rough-sleeping have on our communities. I certainly wish all of those that Members have mentioned today the very best in the future, because we know about that huge impact on people and families, to be threatened with homelessness, to be homeless, and to really be at a loss to find and see a way through the difficulties. And, of course, that's where the support services are so crucially important. As Mabon said, staff are under a great deal of pressure, and issues of retention and recruitment are very real and need to be addressed.
I think Jenny was looking at some ways of perhaps thinking outside the box a little in terms of pension funds, for example. I'm sure the Minister would be very willing to explore all possible options to bring more investment to the table. So, it's really good to have those ideas coming forward for consideration. And, as Jenny also mentioned, prefabricated buildings, timber-framed buildings are part of possible solutions. And I know the Minister has been very keen to bring forward new modular housing and, again, I'm sure will look at new possibilities.
Llywydd, sadly I see that the screen is red as far as my time is concerned. So, let me just close by saying that although there's never a total consensus in terms of the possible solutions and ways forward, I think it's very clear that there is a consensus in terms of the importance of these issues and the need to grasp them and deal with them urgently. So, that gives us a good basis, I think, as a Senedd, as a Welsh Government, to move forward on.
I must say that I do very much welcome the Minister's commitment to this area of work and I know that's reflected in the sector here in Wales. We have a very strong ministerial drive now, which the committee is seeking to work with and to encourage, and sometimes to point in slightly different directions and to possibly speed up a little, but we know that we're working with a Minister that has real commitment to the improvements that are needed. It was good to hear the Minister accept some of the funding issues that were raised during this debate and in the committee's report, and I hope to make further progress on that front as well.
So, thank you very much to everyone and I hope we can see urgent and significant further progress in the very short, near future. Diolch yn fawr.

The proposal is to note the committee's report. Does any Member object? No. The report is therefore noted.

Motion agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

8. Plaid Cymru Debate: Respiratory disease

The following amendment has been selected: amendment 1 in the name of Lesley Griffiths.

The next item will be the Plaid Cymru debate on respiratory disease, and I call on Rhun ap Iorwerth to move the motion.

Motion NDM8266 Siân Gwenllian
To propose that the Senedd:
1. Notes:
a) that 1 in 5 people live with a lung condition in Wales;
b) that Wales has the highest level of respiratory deaths in western Europe;
c) that respiratory services have not recovered post-pandemic, with waiting lists for pulmonary rehabilitation being as high asthreeyears in some parts of Wales;
d) that the Welsh Government has developed a new quality statement but there is no implementation plan.
2. Calls upon the Welsh Government to develop an improvement plan for respiratory disease to transform improve the lives of people living with lung conditions.

Motion moved.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: Thank you very much, Llywydd, and it's my pleasure to open this important debate today in the name of Plaid Cymru on lung health.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: And let us be entirely clear from the very outset here, we have a very real problem in Wales with lung health and respiratory disease, with the highest number of deaths in western Europe in our population, and that is something that I find frightening, and that realisation should require urgent action from Government. We on these benches are calling on the Government to respond to that crisis, because it is a crisis. And the problem in Wales can be clearly seen in many ways and in a series of statistics. One in five people in Wales live with a lung condition, most of these suffer from conditions such as asthma or chronic obstructive pulmonary disease, but we must also bear in mind that there are a number of less common conditions: bronchiectasis and sleep apnoea, and so on and so fourth. Sixty-one per cent of those suffering can't access early care, which leads to conditions going untreated until they have developed to be more serious. I have a statistic that I've just found now, following a conversation with Siân Gwenllian, the Member for Arfon, which demonstrates that only 13.7 per cent of people receive what would be expected in terms of COPD care in Wales and, in Betsi Cadwaladr, the figure is less than 10 per cent in terms of what is thought of as basic treatment for COPD.
Waiting times for treatment are generally too long and are longer than ever as a result of the pandemic. This often means that it's not the best treatment that's provided to people, but the easiest or the swiftest—that blue pump that we all recognise being given far too easily. Even when the pump is prescribed for patients, the training on how to use the pump isn't always provided correctly, which leads to the incredible statistic that three quarters of patients don't use their asthma pumps in the right way. That makes no sense and it's not acceptable.
There are major problems with patients' understanding, and the general public's understanding more generally, as how to prevent pulmonary conditions by making changes, which can be very small changes, to their daily lives, and then how to cope with pulmonary conditions after diagnosis. The education and support to deal with the major change that a diagnosis can lead to are not adequate, which means that patients become reliant on things that provide short-term relief, such as those blue pumps, rather than learning how to manage their condition and learn to live healthily or more healthily.
There are broader problems too, of course, that we need to consider here that go beyond waiting times and treatments for individual patients. There are huge environmental problems that have a truly negative impact on our pulmonary health. As many as 2,000 people died in Wales last year because of the impacts of air pollution. That is an entirely unacceptable statistic, and we must wake up to this. We have been far too slow in responding to the concerns. There have been proposals made here in the Senedd, there has been pressure across parties here for clear action from Government. And, yes, there are steps being taken, and the Government is saying the right things very often, but we are facing a crisis. I'm pleased to see the co-operation agreement putting so much emphasis on pushing towards net zero and the benefit that will come in terms of cleaner air in that regard.
I acknowledge, having looked at the Government's amendment today, that the Government has taken some steps in relation to respiratory conditions. I agree with the principles listed in the Government's quality statement: that the service has to be effective and safe, and must focus on patient needs—it must be patient-centred, if you like. That is crucial. But there is no plan in place that clearly sets out how we can implement the kinds of changes that we need to see in order to provide quality services. There is no firm plan in place on how to tackle waiting lists that are far too long; no plan in place on how to move away from the over-reliance on those blue pumps that I mentioned and move to treatments that manage symptoms more effectively, and trying to tackle cases and the reasons behind the symptoms rather than simply slowing them or offering short-term relief; there is no plan on how to educate people to cope better with respiratory conditions and how to prevent ill health in the first instance.
Now, I enjoyed taking part in an event here in the Senedd sponsored by John Griffiths a few weeks ago. It was the launch of a report by Asthma and Lung UK. That event proposed an alternative way forward—an alternative way of dealing with these problems that we have with lung health here in Wales, and the emphasis was on the need for an improvement plan. Having that kind of clear, realistic plan as to the direction of travel and the timetable for travel was central to those recommendations.
In January of this year, the Government published an improvement plan for cancer services—something that I was certainly very pleased to see. But doesn't that demonstrate that there is real value in the Government identifying the importance of those kinds of plans for different conditions, and that we need improvement plans in order to deliver our objectives?
I will leave my initial contribution there. I am confident that we will hear very powerful evidence across the Chamber this afternoon on the need for a plan of this kind. The Government, in their amendment, actually delete the demand for an improvement plan. So, let's hear from the Minister how the Government intend to take the kinds of bold steps that we need in an alternative way. But, as I say, we will hear clear evidence this afternoon, and the one thing that we can't do is allow the statistics that I've quoted to continue: the highest number of deaths in western Europe. It is a crisis, and we need urgent action in response.

I have selected the amendment to the motion, and I call on the Minister for Health and Social Services to move formally amendment 1.

Amendment 1—Lesley Griffiths
Delete all after 1(b) and replace with:
that Wales is leading the way in the UK in many aspects of improving respiratory disease services, including the use of digital education at scale to improve clinical care, the use of patient apps to reduce the need for urgent and emergency care, and supporting patients to move to using lower carbon footprint inhalers;
that the NHS will respond to the Quality Statement for Respiratory Disease through its local operational planning and will be supported nationally by the NHS Executive's clinical network for respiratory disease.

Amendment 1moved.

Okay. A thumbs-up will do. Thank you very much to the Minister. Russell George.

Russell George AC: Thank you, Llywydd. I'd like to thank Plaid for bringing forward this motion today and indicate that the Welsh Conservatives will be supporting this as well. It is, I think, disappointing that the Government have decided to table an amendment that whitewashes the facts about respiratory diseases in the original motion. I think the Government could have easily accepted these points to acknowledge that there is more to be done. And as has been pointed out, and as the motion points out, a fifth of the Welsh population has a lung condition—the same proportion that is on an NHS waiting list, and it's a cause of concern that should spur the Welsh Government into action beyond the quality statement. Such statements are only good intentions if they're not backed up with a plan. The quality statement describes what good-quality services for respiratory conditions should look like, but if the Minister wants to make ambition a reality, then we need to see that improvement plan, as has been mentioned.
Wales has the second-highest rate of respiratory disease in Europe—hardly in keeping with, I would suggest, the relaxed tone, I would say, of the Government's amendment. It is particularly frustrating to read also that the quality statement told us that the focus on the proper diagnosis, management and treatment of respiratory diseases will be complemented by other national strategy and policy related to other communicable diseases, as well as plans related to tobacco and obesity. Later, the statement confirmed it would be individual health boards that would be responsible for planning the delivery of their respiratory care services themselves, rather than being able to work from a national strategy with a set of steps and expectations. So, I would suggest not only has the Welsh Government not taken the most fundamental of steps towards helping rebuild these services, but they have passed the buck on delivering the necessary transformation, in my view.
The motion talks about chronic obstructive pulmonary disease, which affects 74,000 people in Wales—that's an entire parliamentary constituency—yet there's a three-year waiting list. Now, I know we talk a lot about waiting lists in this Chamber, with 40,000 people still waiting for over two years for treatment across the nation, but just imagine struggling to breathe and seeking medical attention and being told it'll be over three years before help comes.
Now, yes, there are the cost-of-living pressures or no cost-of-living pressures, people will—and I see evidence of this myself—spend their life savings to get treatment privately, and this is not, certainly, an acceptable state of affairs. And not only do these conditions make life difficult for people with them, but many will need carers, and these include unpaid carers, of course, as well. So, I want to use this opportunity to ask the Minister and the Welsh Government to make it clear, or easier for them, through a right to respite, free bus travel and grants to access education, training and quality employment opportunities as well. But, ultimately today, Llywydd, I agree with the motion: I agree that the Government does need to bring forward an improvement plan for respiratory disease.

Mabon ap Gwynfor AS: I'd like to thank Rhun for opening this debate this afternoon. It is an important debate. Rhun, in his opening remarks, mentioned the little blue pump. All of us are very familiar with the little blue pump, and many people look at it and think, 'Well, it's just asthma.' When somebody is out of breath, they just have to take a little puff from the pump and everything will be fine. But that impression is completely misleading, and as we've just heard from Rhun, it is an extremely serious matter.
I should declare an interest in this context. I also have to take this pump. I have a steroid pump in the morning, the brown one, and that blue Ventolin pump at times of emergency, and members of my family also live with asthma. But I want to use the next few minutes to talk about two specific elements, namely air pollution and housing.
Rhun has already talked about the 2,000 people who die here in Wales as a result of air pollution, and in our recent discussions regarding the Llanbedr bypass, the issue of air pollution became a real live issue for me. I was discussing the issue with residents of the area, and they complained that their health was being seriously affected by the queues of vehicles in the village, waiting with their engines running, and the smoke coming out of the exhaust pipes affecting their health, and they were complaining that the health of their lungs was suffering especially.
It was shocking to me to learn that air pollution is the biggest environmental threat to our public health in Wales aside from smoking. So, when you consider that lung conditions cost over £0.5 billion to the health service in Wales every year, then if we could tackle air pollution, that would be a big step in improving people's health and saving scarce funding in the health service.
Of course, everyone looks at Wales as a small nation full of mountains and beaches, a place so full of fresh air, but parts of Wales have some of the worst air pollution in the United Kingdom. Take Cardiff and Port Talbot, which have registered higher levels of particulate matter emissions than Manchester and Birmingham. And, of course, everyone here is familiar with the pollution of the A472 in Hafodyrynys, which showed the highest levels of pollution outside of London. It should therefore surprise no-one that ClientEarth took this Government to court back in 2018, due to a lack of action in this area of air pollution.
Air pollution affects all of us, but it affects some more than others, with people living in deprived areas suffering the worst effects. But high levels of air pollution increase the chances of people suffering from lung cancer, asthma, COPD, miscarriages, babies being born early or underweight, heart disease, dementia, mental health, of course, obesity, and a great deal more. So, it is clear that, for the benefit of our public health and the public purse, we need a clear strategy to address this.
Secondly, we have the housing element—a matter that is very close to my heart. Again, it is the poorest, the most vulnerable, and the most deprived who suffer the most as a result of air pollution and poor-quality housing, which affect their health. Damp and mouldy houses have an adverse effect on people's lung health. Indeed, children who live in houses with mould and damp are up to three times more likely to suffer from constant coughing or wheezing than children who live in dry houses. And children who live in homes that are not heated appropriately are twice as likely to suffer from chest problems and breathing problems, such as asthma and bronchitis. This, in turn, leads to that child suffering from the condition for years, possibly for life, reducing that person's chances in life if the condition is not treated properly. In the same way, dampness can also lead to similar conditions and effects.
Lung health must therefore be taken seriously, and must be a priority for the Government. It is clear that we need an action plan in order to tackle air pollution and improve the quality of our homes; this must therefore be a cross-departmental plan within the Government. If we can have such a plan, which emphasises the need to improve the quality of our air and improve the standard of our homes, then we can see people's quality of life improving and see fewer people suffering from problems related to their lungs. Thank you.

John Griffiths AC: I'd like to, I think, agree with many of the points already made, and concentrate on some of the preventative aspects of producing better lung health in Wales. We've heard very effectively, Llywydd, of the extent of the problem—one in five people in Wales suffering with lung conditions, the prevalence of asthma and COPD. I was very pleased to host that recent Asthma Cymru event here in the Senedd, looking at health services in response to the scale of the challenge, and making suggestions as to the way forward. And obviously, it is vital that we improve our health services for people with respiratory conditions, and the quality statement must be made a reality in our health services, right across Wales.
But as I said, I would like to concentrate on prevention, and there is much more that can be done to deal with the air quality issues, as we've heard. And indeed, areas of Wales have been breaching European Union regulations for several years now, and we know that there's a real problem—particulate matter and other. Public Health Wales has described outdoor air pollution as the greatest environmental risk to health, and estimated that between 1,000 and 1,400 deaths per year in Wales can be attributed to exposure to air pollution. It has a huge impact on health and, of course, it is a social justice issue, because poorer people are disproportionately affected—the areas, the houses that they occupy are disproportionately affected.
So, obviously, it's really important that we address this issue, and that's why I very much welcome the Environment (Air Quality and Soundscapes) (Wales) Bill that Welsh Government have set out, in terms of the impact it can have on addressing these problems and improving the situation. Having a national air quality strategy, together with local air quality management, controlling smoke, the possibilities of trunk road charging, combating idling vehicles—which, I must say, you see all the time, whether it's outside schools or in our town and city centres; there is absolutely no reason why that should be happening, and it must be stamped out—and, of course, having a duty on Welsh Ministers to promote awareness of air pollution will be extremely important.
As ever, we need adequate funding, to take forward policies, and there is a budget available. It is about prevention in part, because it does seek to improve air quality and prevent the worsening of concentrations of pollution, and to aid mitigation, and also to look at more innovative approaches and new technologies. So, we need the money in place and we need the legislation in place, and I hope all of that can go forward as quickly as possible.
Of course, smoking—. Jenny, yes.

Jenny Rathbone AC: I absolutely agree with you, and thank you for pointing out the importance of the legislation that’s currently being scrutinised in the climate change committee. Would you agree with me that vehicle idling is one of the most pointless and harmful activities that ought to be put a stop to now? We don’t need further legislation; we need firmer fines to be imposed on people who are doing something that is completely avoidable and completely unnecessary.

John Griffiths AC: Yes, I very much agree, and it does make you think of the need for awareness raising and education, because I’m sure a lot of people, if they understood the impact on health, would stop doing it. But, yes, you see it all too often, and it’s a very practical example of the problem, and one that needs to be addressed right now. As you say, it doesn’t need to wait for legislation; it needs enforcement and action now.
Just to come on briefly to smoking, Llywydd, the latest figures I’ve seen are that around 13 per cent of people in Wales are currently smokers. Again, it takes a huge toll on health in Wales. It’s disabling as well as such a big contributor to premature death, and again, it’s also a social justice issue. We know that so many more people smoke in our more deprived areas. The figures I have are 21 per cent of adults in the most deprived areas of Wales smoke compared to 8 per cent in the least deprived. It's such a big health inequality issue, and again, Public Health Wales have done a lot in terms of reporting on this and bringing to public attention and the attention of policy makers the scale of the problem and the need to move forward. We do have some practical examples of the way that people can be helped to quit with the Help Me Quit programme, and of course the bans on smoking in public places I think are very valuable. But there’s more that can be done to extend those areas and make it even clearer how socially unacceptable smoking is, and the damage it does to our health.
So, practical things we can do now, important legislation coming forward, and we really need to drive this preventative health agenda and tackle air pollution effectively.

Sioned Williams MS: My grandmother, Mari Owens, died of asthma when she was 50 years old, before I was born. She was a miner's wife, and lived in Rhymney, a poor mining village, where the dust and pollution of the coal industry filled the air at the time of her death in 1958. But, as we have heard, people are still dying from asthma in Wales today—people like my grandmother, who live in poor areas, where air pollution remains high, people who live in cold and damp houses.
Now, as then, the condition is much more common among women, with women suffering much more severe symptoms and more likely to die from asthma. A study by Asthma and Lung UK shows that women are almost twice as likely to die from an asthma attack than men. It is estimated that 180,000 women in Wales are living with asthma, and the report shows that not enough research has been done to examine the effects of female sex hormones on asthma. Fluctuations in female sex hormones caused by puberty, pregnancy, menstruation and menopause can worsen or even trigger life-threatening asthma attacks. In remembering that my grandmother was the age that she was when she died—50 years old—this is also obviously a possible factor in what happened to her.
So, it's very concerning, shocking, as Rhun ap Iorwerth, that there are women like my grandmother still dying from asthma in Wales today. Medicine and better treatments are available, but factors such as poverty, a lack of clean air and the impact of health inequalities still play their part in these deaths, and it's a large part. This is an area that needs further investigation, as the one-size-fits-all approach currently used to treat asthma is dangerous for many women in Wales.
Understanding the differences in the role of sex hormones in women's asthma could help develop appropriate interventions that could have a high impact and transform outcomes for women. But for far too long, lung health has not been treated adequately and has not received the level of attention that it needs. Although lung conditions affect one in five people in Wales, as we've heard, only 1.8 per cent of the £2.56 billion that was invested in health research was invested in respiratory research.
In the region of Wales that I represent, the Swansea Bay University Health Board area, 7.3 per cent of people have asthma, which is higher than the Welsh average. The region also contains some of the most deprived communities in Wales. Fifteen per cent of Neath Port Talbot, the county where I live, is included in the 10 per cent most deprived communities in Wales, and 33 per cent is included in the 20 per cent most deprived. The poorest 20 per cent are two to three times more likely to require emergency hospital admissions due to asthma, compared with the wealthiest 20 per cent.
We have heard from Mabon ap Gwynfor about the impact of poor air quality, with Port Talbot in my region being one of the worst places for air pollution in the UK. In Aberavon, 75 per cent of surgeries and 11 per cent of schools are in areas that breach the WHO limits for NO2. Seventy-five point nine per cent of people with COPD who live in deprivation note that air pollution affects their health. Significant health inequalities are certainly associated with COPD, with people from the most deprived households more likely to have an acute attack when they have difficulty breathing.
Our motion today calls on the Welsh Government to develop an improvement plan for respiratory diseases to transform the lives of people living with lung conditions. This improvement plan needs to take full account of the inequalities associated with the occurrence of these diseases, specifically poverty and gender inequalities, and the conditions that can trigger attacks and exacerbate symptoms such as poor housing and a lack of clean air. I'd like to hear from the Minister, therefore, how this will be incorporated in what's happening in terms of the actions of the NHS.
It's not acceptable that these factors, which contributed to the death of my grandmother far too young in 1958, and thousands of other Welsh people since then, are still endangering lives and cutting lives short in 2023. I urge you to support the motion.

Altaf Hussain AS: I thank Plaid Cymru for tabling this important debate today. As Asthma and Lung UK so ably put it,
'Lung health is everybody's problem, yet millions of people with lung conditions still aren't getting the help they need or deserve.'
My region of South Wales West sees some of the highest rates of respiratory deaths in the United Kingdom and western Europe. It is therefore vital that we put in place an improvement plan for respiratory diseases and do all we can to tackle our horrendous record on respiratory deaths.
As any good clinician will tell you, prevention is better than cure. One way we can prevent respiratory deaths is by tackling the scourge of mesothelioma. Mesothelioma is a type of cancer that develops from mesothelium, a thin layer of tissue that covers many of the internal organs. The most commonly area affected is the lining of the lungs and chest wall. The vast majority of cases are caused by exposure to asbestos. According to a recent inquiry by the House of Commons work and pensions select committee, asbestos remains the biggest cause of work-related death in the UK. That is a shocking statistic when we consider that the use of asbestos has been banned for over two decades, but not surprising when we consider how prevalent the material is in many of our public buildings. The Work and Pensions Committee warned that while extreme exposures might be a thing of the past, the risks were likely to escalate. The retrofitting of buildings to meet net-zero requirements mean more materials containing asbestos would be disturbed in the coming decades.
While both the Health and Safety Executive and the UK Government have said they believe it should be removed, the committee said neither had put forward a clear and comprehensive strategy for achieving this. This hidden killer still lurks in many of our public buildings in Wales. While deaths from asbestos-related lung cancers has declined in those working in heavy industry, the work and pensions select committee were told that female primary school teachers now have one of the highest prevalence of mesothelioma as an occupational group. We can't continue to kick the can down the road. Covering up asbestos is not the answer; we must eradicate it from the fabric of our buildings.
I would therefore urge the Welsh Government to introduce plans for the urgent removal of all asbestos in public buildings as part of their improvement plan for respiratory health. It's all well and good tackling air pollution on our streets, but we can no longer ignore the invisible killer in our classrooms and hospital wards. We need action; we need to eradicate asbestos. We need the Welsh Government to step up. Diolch yn fawr.

The Minister for health to contribute to the debate. Eluned Morgan.

Eluned Morgan AC: Diolch yn fawr iawn. Thank you for putting this important matter on the agenda, because I recognise that respiratory disease has a significant impact on our population, and the pandemic has reinforced this for all of us.
There are many people who suffer from asthma or have respiratory issues in Wales. If you’re a person with difficult asthma or more severe COPD, your whole life can become about managing your condition, and what you can do in your day-to-day life may be severely limited. You have to make sure that you're never more than an arm's length from your medication or oxygen, and every winter brings with it the risk of flu and other circulating diseases that may exacerbate your condition. You worry that you might end up in hospital dealing with severe breathlessness. For many people who deal with less serious forms of respiratory disease, it can be more about keeping on top of your management, not letting it get in in the way of living your life.
We’ve heard today that estimates vary from one in five to one in seven of the UK population being affected, but the national survey of Wales indicates that around 8 per cent or one in twelve of the adult population in Wales report a long-term respiratory illness. Whatever the result is, it’s too high, and we need to do something about it, and we do have measures in place to tackle this. The rates for respiratory-related deaths in the motion are certainly concerning, and I’ll be looking into those 2018 figures, just to make sure that I understand the causes, and to see that we are actually making improvements since those 2018 figures.
Regardless of the precise figures, what matters is that there are several hundred thousand people in Wales affected by conditions such as asthma, COPD, lung cancer and pulmonary fibrosis, as well as communicable diseases such as flu, TB and, of course, coronavirus. And that means it will remain a priority for any Government to address. Outcomes for respiratory disease reflect our historic rates of smoking, levels of air pollution—as so many have touched on today—exposure of industrial contaminants and poor housing, and I think this presents us with a larger burden of respiratory illness that healthcare services have to try and mitigate.
It’s not solely, as so many have mentioned today, a matter of access to healthcare services, it's the wider determinants that we have to address in tandem with providing high-quality treatment services. And some of those things have been touched upon by people like John Griffiths. That's why our wider action on, for example, the clean air plan for Wales and the Environment (Air Quality and Soundscapes) (Wales) Bill, is so important. It's why the progress we've made in reducing the smoking rate must be sustained. Smoking rates in 2021-22 were 13 per cent, which is the lowest since records began. Our NHS can and does help thousands of people manage their conditions and intervenes when people are in crisis, but if we want to have the best outcomes in Europe rather than some of the worst, then we need to reduce exposure to things that damage our lungs: air pollution, tobacco smoke, and cold, damp air in our homes. Underpinning all of this must be action to address deprivation and inequality, as they make all these risks harder to address.
When it comes to NHS-delivered care, we’ve had many years of work under way to support NHS services to improve. We saw this in the case of the development of the patient self-managed apps for COPD and asthma, and the development of specialist services for dealing with difficult asthma, as well as important resources to support primary care to manage respiratory conditions to a common standard. Significant progress has been made, but the advent of the pandemic really did have a significant impact on all these efforts, and we’re still seeing some of that impact, particularly with regard to access to spirometry and pulmonary rehabilitation services.

Eluned Morgan AC: The original motion before us today calls on the Welsh Government to develop an improvement plan for respiratory disease. This particular route, if we were to take it, would be very similar to the former delivery plan for respiratory health. But although we have achieved a great deal under the plan, having many national plans for these clinical services has demonstrated to us that, if we do want to secure real change, we have to work within the way the NHS is arranged, planned, funded and held to account.
Last year, I published a quality statement for respiratory disease, in November 2022. Within that statement, I set out our expectations in terms of the quality of services provided by the NHS in this area. And with the support of the NHS executive, I do expect health boards to respond with the steps that they would take to meet these requirements as part of their operational planning. This includes developing nationally agreed care pathways that the NHS should plan to deliver. It includes a broad range of professional learning in healthcare to help the NHS workforce to improve the quality of care for people with respiratory conditions.
Alongside this, it includes addressing reducing the carbon impact of respiratory devices provided on prescription. We have seen a great improvement in that regard already. And finally, it also includes the use of NHS Wales self-management apps for asthma and COPD. Patient feedback does demonstrate that 36 per cent of regular app users visit their GP less often, and that 19 per cent go to A&E less often too. For people who can't manage their conditions, the reduction is even greater, namely 44 per cent and 33 per cent.
Our new approach secures the national leadership, which is crucial, and will now be provided by the respiratory conditions clinical network, which is part of the NHS executive. The basic objective is to set out what high-quality care means, whilst continuing to work with health boards and trusts in order to make improvements. The data will be used to deal with any variation in access to services such as pulmonary rehabilitation, annual reporting and quality care for patients.
And this new approach is already in train, and formal increases in access to services in the community are an early example of how this works. Other areas of the UK have shown an interest in our work here in Wales, and I appreciate that this is a new way of working, and that people can learn lessons from us. I can assure Members that we will be asking the NHS to assess its provision against our expectations, which are set out in the quality statement. And we will also ask the NHS to develop local action plans to improve services with ongoing national support from the NHS executive. Thank you very much.

Rhun ap Iorwerth to respond to the debate.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: Thank you very much, Llywydd, and I'd like to thank everyone, including the Minister, who has taken part in this debate. I did foresee that we would hear very strong evidence, and we did hear very strong evidence about the need to act in this area. We've heard many statistics, and we've heard about experiences—personal experiences, experiences of Members even, because lung disease and respiratory problems affect all of our families, probably. And we realised clearly, even though the Minister for health is in front of us today, that we need to act across the Government in terms of the response to this crisis. We are talking about elements relating to planning and housing and transport, getting rid of asbestos—that has to be part of the solution according to Altaf Hussain—smoking as well, and, of course, the need to tackle poverty. It struck me in listening to some of the contributions how many people have chosen to fight and have succeeded in quitting smoking, because of the realisation of the harm that smoking does to ourselves, and, then, how many have no choice at all about how polluted the air is that they have to breathe in, because they live in poverty, and they live near a road that pollutes the air. And this is an area that touches upon so many aspects of ministerial portfolios in the Welsh Government.
I'm grateful to the Minister for her response. I agree, certainly, with her about the need to emphasise the preventative work. I will always encourage the Minister to do more in terms of driving a preventative revolution, and that includes elements such as smoking prevention and cessation and so forth.
But we do need an improvement plan. I'm pleased to hear the Minister talk about the work that she is requesting from the health boards on developing services; that's important, of course. But it's not us, as politicians here, who are asking for an improvement plan that is clear and definitive, but those who are involved with this area from day to day—yes, Asthma and Lung UK, but also, GPs, and the families of those who are suffering. So, we have to move forward in that way. I do realise that the Government has committed for many years now to quality statements. In themselves, quality statements aren't a bad thing, but they are half the work. As we saw with cancer, the problem with having a quality statement without action is that nothing drives the action that needs to be taken to make a real difference to people's lives.
So, we do need to improve access to treatment. We need to tackle the old-fashioned treatments, if you like, that are still being given out too easily rather than looking at more effective alternatives. And we need to look at training and education, which is inadequate at present, in terms of dealing with different conditions. And, as we've heard, air pollution levels are far too high and causing suffering and unnecessary death.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: I'm grateful to John Griffiths, and to the Minister, for recognising the scale of the issue that we do face. I'm grateful to the Conservatives for saying that they will be supporting our motion, unamended, today. But to all Labour Members, let me say this: take a deep breath, recognise and realise how precious that is, and vote for our motion unamended today.

The proposal is to agree the motion without amendment. Does any Member object? [Objection.] There is objection. Therefore, I will defer voting on this motion until voting time.

Voting deferred until voting time.

9. Voting Time

That brings us to voting time and, unless three Members wish for the bell to be rung, we will proceed directly to the vote.
And therefore the first vote this afternoon is on the debate on a Member's legislative proposal on high-rise building safety, and I call for a vote on the motion, tabled in the name of Janet Finch-Saunders. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 29, 18 abstentions, and none against, and therefore the motion is agreed.

Item 6. Debate on a Member's Legislative Proposal - High-rise building safety: For: 29, Against: 0, Abstain: 18
Motion has been agreedClick to see vote results

The next votes will be on item 8, the Plaid Cymru debate on respiratory diseases. And I call for a vote first of all on the motion without amendment, tabled in the name of Siân Gwenllian. Open the vote. The vote is tied, and therefore I exercise my casting vote against the motion, and therefore the motion in not agreed, with 24 in favour and 25 against.

Item 8. Plaid Cymru Debate - Respiratory disease. Motion without amendment : For: 24, Against: 24, Abstain: 0
As there was an equality of votes, the Llywydd used her casting vote in accordance with Standing Order 6.20(ii).
Motion has been rejectedClick to see vote results

Which takes us now to a vote on amendment 1. Amendment 1, tabled in the name of Lesley Griffiths. Open the vote. The vote is again tied, and therefore I exercise my casting vote against the amendment, which means that the amendment is not agreed, 24 in favour, 25 against, which means that neither the motion nor the amendment have been agreed, so therefore nothing is agreed on that particular item.

Item 8. Plaid Cymru debate - Respiratory disease. Amendment 1, tabled in the name of Lesley Griffiths: For: 24, Against: 24, Abstain: 0
As there was an equality of votes, the Llywydd used her casting vote in accordance with Standing Order 6.20(ii).
Amendment has been rejectedClick to see vote results

That concludes voting for today.

10. Short Debate: Why Wales needs a strategic plan to prioritise brain tumour research

Which allows us to move on to the short debate under item 10. Before I call on Peter Fox, I will ask Members to leave the Chamber quietly.

If Members who are leaving can do so quickly and quietly, that would be appreciated, and I'll call Peter Fox to introduce his short debate.

Peter Fox AS: Diolch, Llywydd.I'm pleased to allow Mark Isherwood, Mike Hedges, Jack Sargeant and Peredur Owen Griffiths to have a minute of my time. The theme of this debate is why Wales needs a strategic plan to prioritise brain tumour research.
Brain tumours are indiscriminate and can strike any one at any age. It's shocking that this disease kills more children and adults under the age of 40 than any other cancer. That's an absolutely shocking statistic. The indiscriminate nature of brain tumours leaves a devastating impact, not just for the sufferer, but also for their loved ones, and I know from personal experience, as others will here—my dear mother was diagnosed with a glioblastoma tumour that grew inside her brain and its tentacles devastated and destroyed that brain with great speed. She was given three to six months, and sadly passed away, at the age of 81, in 2019. Some may think that that's a good age, but we know that the tumour robbed her of at least 10 or more years; her family lived way into their nineties, almost to 100.
It's a devastating illness that takes few prisoners. It's so hard when somebody you love and care for deeply gets taken before their time, and with little notice. And for all those, like my mum, who have died of brain cancer, we have no choice but to accept that they have passed away. But, I believe it's now incumbent on each and every one of us in this Chamber today to do all we can to highlight this truly dreadful disease with an ultimate aim to prevent or at least reduce the number of people being affected by it. I was shocked to learn that, historically, just 1 per cent of the national spend on cancer research has been allocated to this devastating disease. Let that sink in for a moment: just 1 per cent of funding allocated, despite 16,000 people across the UK of all ages being struck down by this brain cancer every single year. I learnt this shocking fact following a recent meeting here in the Senedd with the Brain Tumour Research charity, and I would like to commend that charity for the sterling work that it does, day in, day out, in raising vital awareness surrounding brain cancer. Charity officials told me that we must, and I quote,
'Recognise a uniquely complex disease with a unique response'.
For those suffering from a brain tumour, time is of the essence. And Minister, that is why I decided to bring forward this short debate. There is so much we can do collaboratively to help halt this growing indiscriminate disease.
Having liaised in depth with the Brain Tumour Research charity, today, I'm calling for support to help achieve seven bold points. No. 1, the Welsh Government should recognise brain tumour research as a critical priority, developing a strategic plan for adequately resourcing and funding discovery, translational and clinical research; No. 2, the Welsh Government must ensure that a robust tissue collection and storage infrastructure is in place across the country; No.3, more action is needed to build research capacity, encouraging and retaining talent through fellowships and research initiatives; No. 4, we must ensure equity of access to clinical trials, and that the clinical trial database is robust and up to date, this will undoubtedly improve clinical trials; No. 5, with some pharmaceutical companies choosing not to pursue the development of brain cancer drugs in the UK, the Welsh Government needs to simplify the regulatory process to encourage investment for the longer time periods necessary to develop and deliver new brain tumour drugs; No. 6, funding bodies should ring-fence specific funding for research into childhood brain tumours where survival rates for the most aggressive tumours have remained unchanged for decades, leading to frustrated families obviously seeking costly and unproven, often, treatment abroad; and No. 7, a ministerial meeting is vitally needed between Welsh Government Ministers, the Brain Tumour Research charity, Welsh brain tumour campaigners, and brain tumour researchers based in Wales, to discuss how to improve outcomes for present and future brain tumour patients and their families.
The mission of these seven points is to raise awareness and increase funding for vital research. With brain tumours killing more women under 35 than breast cancer, and killing more men under 70 than prostate cancer, the time for inaction is over. Our next actions could make a huge difference to those diagnosed and their families. Thank you.

The Deputy Presiding Officer took the Chair.

Mark Isherwood AC: When I attended the Brain Tumour Research awareness event on 25 April, I heard that brain tumours kill more children and adults under the age of 40 than any other cancer, yet historically, just 1 per cent of the national spend on cancer research has been allocated to this devastating disease, and that more must be done by the Welsh Government to build research capacity, encouraging and retaining talent.
Brain cancer is the second leading cause of cancer death in the under-40s, second only to leukaemia, with 10.3 per cent of male cancer deaths and 6.7 per cent of female cancer deaths under 40 years of age due to brain and central nervous system tumours. Welsh Government should therefore recognise brain tumour research as a critical priority and agree to a ministerial meeting with Brain Tumour Research, Welsh brain tumour campaigners and brain tumour researchers based in Wales to discuss how best to take forward a pathway to improve options and outcomes for present and future brain tumour patients and their families. Diolch.

Mike Hedges AC: Can I first of all thank Peter Fox not only for a minute in this debate but for bringing this short debate today? I was very pleased to sponsor an event on 25 April in the Senedd relating to brain tumours. My mother died of a brain tumour, which went undetected until it reached stage 4. She was being treated for a thyroid problem. The symptoms develop, as Peter said, gradually over several months, but only 40 per cent of people diagnosed with malignant brain tumourslive for more than a year, and less than 20 per cent for more than five years. Several factors contribute to the high mortality rates of brain cancer, including the aggressive nature of the disease and impediments to treatment, so catching tumours early allows for more treatment options. What we need is more research into brain tumours, how we can stop them developing, and we need GPs to be better trained in identifying the existence of brain tumours and arranging for earlier tests.

Jack Sargeant AC: I'm grateful, Presiding Officer, to follow my colleague Mike Hedges in thanking Peter Fox, not only for a minute of his time, but bringing forward this extremely important debate today.
Llywydd, I'd like to use my time today to talk about Aaron Wharton and his parents, Nicola and Lee Wharton. Tragically, Aaron died of a rare brain tumour in April of this year. During his illness, both Aaron and his parents were, quite simply, incredibly brave, and to quote his parents from our local paper, The Leader:
'We kept life as conventional as possible for Aaron, encouraging him to live the life a "normal" little boy should. I think it was this attitude which saw him not only survive, but thrive.'
Presiding Officer, that takes amazing strength, and we should recognise that. Aaron's parents want to do all they can to raise awareness of brain tumours and to support the research Peter Fox has talked about this evening into treatments. This is an endeavour I fully support and I hope that, in Aaron's memory, the Welsh Government can support too.

Peredur Owen Griffiths AS: Thank you very much, Peter, for giving me the opportunity to contribute to this debate.

Peredur Owen Griffiths AS: Thank you very much for bringing this debate. And I echo a lot of what has been said already.
When I read the topic of this debate last week, it triggered a painful memory. I was transported to a phone call that I had with my brother in December 2014. He'd just come out of a meeting with doctors and my parents to discuss why my mam wasn't well. She had not been right for about 12 months, but had deteriorated, and she was suffering from stroke-like symptoms. During that emotional phone call, he told me she had multiple brain tumours. Over the next six weeks, she deteriorated and passed away peacefully at the end of January, having received excellent palliative care at St David's Hospice in Llandudno. And my thanks will always go out to hospices across Wales for the service and the care they give to patients and families.
By telling this story, I just wanted to highlight three things. We need better early testing, because the prognosis is much better if brain tumours are caught early. We need research specifically for brain tumours, to develop treatments to save lives. And if things don't go well, we need to continue to fund our hospices across Wales, especially children's hospices, to ensure that end-of-life care is the best it can be. Diolch yn fawr.

I call on the Minister for Health and Social Services to reply to the debate. Eluned Morgan.

Eluned Morgan AC: Diolch yn fawr. I want to thank Peter Fox and, actually, many of the Members who clearly have a real personal interest in this particular subject area. And it's been really heartfelt, I think, to hear people's stories, their personal stories, and understandable why they see the need for high-quality cancer research, which is of course vital for patients who are suffering. I think it provides the evidence required to provide the best care, experience and services, and that's why that high-quality cancer research is so vital.

Eluned Morgan AC: But with so many types of cancer, many of which have very low prevalence rates per country, in order to produce the evidence required to make the necessary improvements in prevention, diagnosis and treatment, we must see cancer research as a global endeavour. With that in mind, it's important that we have a strong cancer research environment in Wales that can contribute to this global endeavour and support the delivery of research within our NHS, across many types of cancer, including brain and central nervous system cancers. And I'd just like to state that we do have to do this in order to make sure we respect the memory of people like Aaron Wharton, whoJack talked about. And it's just heart-wrenching to think about the pain that the parents had to go through in that situation, and heart-wrenching to hear so many of you talk about your mothers and what they've had to suffer.
Over the years, cancer has been the single biggest area of Welsh Government health research investment. Significant Government funding has, for example, built key cancer research infrastructure, such as the Wales Cancer Research Centre and the brain repair and intracranial neurotherapeutics unit. Now, in collaboration, these two groups are currently working to better understand and predict treatment responses in brain tumours, as well as developing novel technology to support Welsh-led first-in-human trials of therapies delivered directly into the brain. Of particular relevance to brain tumour research, Wales also benefits from the world-leading brain imaging centre at Cardiff University, and I was really honoured to go and visit this. Working in collaboration with Velindre, the centre is supporting the development of neuroimaging biomarkers to better understand the response and toxicity of radiotherapy treatment in brain tumours.
We also have significant activity in cancer research in our NHS organisations themselves. Many of you have talked about the need for clinical trials; they are vital in both understanding conditions and offering treatment opportunities to patients. Here in Wales, we have around 10 brain tumour studies open, ranging from trials looking at understanding the causes of brain cancer to trials testing treatments, including radiotherapy and chemotherapy. Ensuring all patients have access to research opportunities is vital. Health and Care Research Wales routinely work closely with clinical teams to offer support to patients who may wish to access trials in specialist centres outside of Wales, so no-one is excluded from opportunities to try new treatments.
Many of you will know that, last year, our research community, in partnership with stakeholders and Health and Care Research Wales, published the first cancer research strategy for Wales. The strategy focuses on six priority research themes where there is recognised Welsh research strength and where Welsh researchers can make the biggest contribution in support of the global research endeavour. And these themes are precision and mechanistic oncology; immuno-oncology; radiotherapy; cancer clinical trials; palliative and supportive oncology; and population and health-based cancer prevention, early diagnosis, primary care and health services research.
Now, this new strategic approach recognises that, as we strive for improvements in prevention, diagnosis and treatment and work hard to address inequality, including gender inequality, we must focus on areas of critical mass and excellence that enable the research we support in Wales to deliver better patient outcomes. As well as Welsh Government funding, via Health and Care Research Wales, for the BRAIN unit and the Welsh Cancer Research Centre, there are other ways in which we're supporting brain cancer research. In partnership with Cancer Research UK, we invest in a UK-wide experimental cancer research centre network, supporting both adult and paediatric Welsh research involvement. And this experimental cancer medicine centre network supports the delivery of early-phase cancer studies between research partners to enable faster and more personalised patient benefit, both for adult and paediatric networks that cover brain cancer trials.

Eluned Morgan AC: This emphasises the importance of working in partnership, and we must continue with the work of working across national boundaries, universities, health and social care institutions and funders in order to create funding opportunities for Welsh researchers. We must ensure that our researchers are in touch with other quality research groups and increase the opportunities that Welsh patients have to participate in research. Given that we are members of the National Cancer Research Institute, we continue to be committed to looking for opportunities with partners.
Beyond research, our broader approach to improving cancer services and outcomes is set out in the quality statement for cancer, which I published in March 2021. As you know, I put significant focus on improving cancer services and outcomes. One of our six priorities in the NHS planning framework this year is cancer, and we are working closely with NHS services to make improvements. I'm pleased to see that the clinical services for brain cancer in north and south Wales have been given centre of excellence status by the Tessa Jowell Brain Cancer Mission. And this is extremely important, and it shows excellence in the patient treatment and care and research available to the people of Wales.
I'm extremely grateful for the opportunity to discuss this issue with you today to highlight the importance of brain cancer research for us as a Government, and to give you a clear idea of its role in the context of the cancer research strategy and in the broader research environment here in Wales. Thank you.

Thank you, Minister, and all the speakers on this item today.

And on behalf of the cross-party group on cancer, which I chair, thank you, Peter, for bringing this debate forward, because we forget sometimes the different forms of cancer that affect individuals, and this is another one of those forms that sort of gets put by the side as we talk about other things. It's important that we raise the profile of all. Thank you.
That brings us to the end of business for the day.

The meeting ended at 18:12.

QNR

Questions to the Minister for Social Justice

Huw Irranca-Davies: What consideration has the Welsh Government given to working with voluntary organisations and local authorities to support a pilot multi-bank in Bridgend and Ogmore as a practical response to individual household poverty?

Jane Hutt: Across Government, Ministers are considering new and innovative activities such as multibanks in the development and delivery of their programme for government commitments and within their policies and service delivery considerations, in order to tackle poverty in our most vulnerable communities.

Natasha Asghar: Will the Minister provide an update on the Welsh Government's plans to improve women's safety?

Jane Hutt: We have strengthened our violence against women, domestic abuse and sexual violence strategy to include violence and abuse in all public spaces and are delivering this through a blueprint approach in collaboration with partners and survivors. This is a societal problem that requires a societal response.

Questions to the Deputy Minister for Arts and Sport, and Chief Whip

Janet Finch-Saunders: What assessment has the Minister made of the impact of living in temporary accommodation on child poverty?

Dawn Bowden: Our 'Ending Homelessness in Wales: A high level action plan 2021-2026' recognises poverty as a structural cause of homelessness. The plan sets out our ambition to reduce our dependency on temporary accommodation as part of our transformational shift towards rapid rehousing. In support of this, we are investing over £210 million in homelessness and housing support services.